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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but I can certainly get equal food for less than $10 a day in NYC where I live now. Hell I basically buy whatever food I want when I go through the grocery store without looking at price tags (it's food, why skimp on the basics?) and Mint.com is telling me my average food in a month - including liquor and restaurants, is about $450 or $15 a day. (I cook at home almost every day, so for me eating out/liquor is abo…

Minimum wage is not a consistent measure and doesn't even have the same meaning everywhere. And food availability varies too. I would probably have to make twice my current salary to eat Chinese food everyday. But if you went further in your comparison you would probably conclude that you would make many times more money than them at the same job in the US. But that's because its two different countries, not because…

And we don't even have a minimum wage in Germany. (I don't know why Americans are so fond of it.)

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#152
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people are working 15 hour shifts and they work 6.25 days a week. That means they are working over 90 hours a week; every week. I can't believe you actually compare that with the conditions in the west. The marginal cost for the employee of each additional hour is huge. Big difference between working 40 hours with frequent overtime and 90 hours a week.

Hey, you are the one proposing a limit of 45 hours - which is HALF of what you cite here, and which would take away the fat from many people's incomes not only in China but in Europe & the US as well. I guess that the next thing you're going to say will be that the limit should be at 50 or 60 or 70 or whatever - I say, let people make their own damn choices. If these people are being whipped into working 90 hours wee…

I propose a hard limit of 168 hours of work per week.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#153
post #2

"China does not have unions ..." Oh the irony. A communist country that exploits its workers like a true capitalist.

One could argue that China is either the worst of both worlds (capitalism/communism) or the best of both worlds.

Or something more nuanced.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#154

Is this supposed to be surprising? Globalized manufacturing is a zero-sum race to the bottom where only share-holders win. Everybody else becomes slaves when "contracting out to the lowest bidder" means "hiring the cruelest whipmaster".

It's is definitely not a zero-sum game. I can demonstrate this by destroying some value, if you'd like. (Demonstrating that the the sum can go up is a bit more difficult, since you need to actually do something worthwhile.)

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#155
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is not the counterexample to this article to prove that China needs the sweatshops and they are excusable because the ends justify the means. First you overestimating the extent to which the sweatshops in Taiwan are the cause of its progress and ignoring what other factors were involved. There are plenty of countries in the world teaming with sweatshops, few are growing into Taiwan 2.0 What are those other fac…

> 1) It is a smaller country. So if you carved up China into smaller countries, that might help?

It probably would, decentralizing control and allowing competitive economic regimes to emerge, rather than the counterproductive nepotism rampant there now.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#156

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

I'm actually rather disconcerted by this comment. The arguments presented use relativistic reasoning to justify the conditions in factories in China, i.e., "regardless of the dehumanizing conditions in the factory now, ultimately we are redeeming the lives of these people who would otherwise be trapped in poverty-stricken lives as farmers."

This argument fails on a number of grounds, the least of which is that we may or may not be improving there lives by hiring them to work 85 hour work weeks factories that lack any air conditioning. Perhaps some of these people were starving as farmers, perhaps many of them weren't. Do you have sources that point to the extent of the improvement that factory life is bringing?

Furthermore, do you know that this really is the road to improvement for this generation? You talk as if these factories really are gifts from generous westerners, as if these companies should feel justified, if not proud, that they are transforming and saving the lives of these workers. I recently heard a podcast on Radio West titled, "The Cost of a Two Dollar T-shirt." In it, the author took a non-sensationalist approach that the t-shirt factories in Cambodia really were humane, they were even air conditioned. However, he mentioned that these people still lived in shanty towns and barely made enough money after 60 hours of week to afford food. He also mentioned that their 33 cents an hour wages were lagging behind inflation, and, in fact, these workers were becoming, relatively speaking, poorer and poorer as the years went on. So, no, I disagree with your claim that any factory job + time = helping raise another country out of poverty.

(Link to the podcast I mentioned: http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kuer/news.newsmain/article...

Also, link to the original article by the guest on the podcast: http://harpers.org/archive/2010/01/0082784)

Lastly, you provide no justification for why the conditions need to be so bad. You seem to be saying that, since these workers were previously living in worse conditions and since we're improving that life, it's justified to either treat them inhumanely or exploit them. Their lives have been improved ergo they either have no right to complain or we have no responsibility or motive to do any better. There is no high road in your argument, only defensive argumentation and justification of labor practices that are well below what they should humanly be.

In the article I linked above, the author mentioned that the labor costs of making a t-shirt for a major corporation (Gap, Nike, Walmart, etc.) only made up 4% of the total cost of the product. If that's the case or even close to the case with the Microsoft factory mentioned in the original article, then going even so far as doubling the worker's wages would have a minimal impact on the bottom line of the product. At the very least, fat could be trimmed from the other 96-ish% of the cost of making the product to make room to improve the factory conditions.

Not only could most corporations afford to improve the wages of these workers, but what is lost by improving the conditions? Wouldn't workers who are sweating for an entire 16 hour shift be happier and more productive if the management spent more money on air conditioning? Even if find proof that happier workers aren't always more productive and perhaps sweatshop conditions really induce more productivity, there needs to be a line, a line of basic worker's rights, that prevents the downward price pressures from a competitive market from creating deplorable working conditions for anyone.

Your arguments seem to suggest that everyone goes through these deplorable factory conditions before they move onto a better life. Not only do they not NEED to go through these conditions, as ultimately someone has the power to change and improve the conditions of the factory, but these workers are not necessarily guaranteed that life will improve afterwards. Perhaps these working conditions become de facto and the workers don't make enough money to earn an education or gain the economic mobility to choose better working conditions. The system could just as easily become entrenched, leaving a class of workers trapped in poor working conditions for generations.

At the base of your arguments, I think it's frightening to ever use relativistic arguments to justify inhumane treatment. Take slavery in early American history: "Well, slaves used to live in malaria-ridden Africa in mud dwellings, and now at least they get a stable source of food and, most of the time, a wood shelter over their head." Deplorable conditions always need to be addressed and justified in present and absolute terms. Inhumane treatment is inhumane treatment, and active steps should always be taken to improve such conditions. The improvements should not be left up to the "benevolent" forces of time or ignored because the conditions are a (slight) improvement over previous conditions. If you're going to offer a poor farmer a job, you don't have the right to offer him a job with any such conditions that you choose.

Sure, I'll grant you that the article was sensationalist (maybe the photographs were taken without needing to be "smuggled out", etc), and I don't think any cause can be constructively advanced when such arguments are used. However, the majority of your arguments are morally objectionable and logically unsound.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#157

14 and 15 year olds should not be working in sweatshops. what the hell is wrong with the people defending this? this isn't the pampered western worker vs the average 3rd world worker, this is kids being forced to go without sleep and effectively without a life for pennies. fuck that. i know most people will argue something like "they are probably lucky to get it." it's still bad for them, and trying to justify the ba…

In Germany you used to start your apprenticeship at age 14.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#158
post #87
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read his entire comment?

Yes. Some other parts did not give this impression, that's true, but the flippant, sarcastic expression that I quoted didn't help him appear "fair and balanced" in the same sense that someone saying "people get murdered all the time, what's the big deal" wouldn't.

God it seems like all we do is debate analogies on HN, but hey I'll bite!

Actually, his comment is more analogous to "people get killed in war all the time, what's the big deal."

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#159

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

I'm actually rather disconcerted by this comment. The arguments presented use relativistic reasoning to justify the conditions in factories in China, i.e., "regardless of the dehumanizing conditions in the factory now, ultimately we are redeeming the lives of these people who would otherwise be trapped in poverty-stricken lives as farmers." This argument fails on a number of grounds, the least of which is that we may…

1) If the farmers were so happy and not starving, why did they CHOOSE to work in the factories?

2) As a nation, actually, I think the argument that everyone must go through those conditions is quite right. Children worked in sweatshops in downtown Manhattan < 100 years ago (actually still do if you look hard enough). I don't think he's justifying the conditions, I think he's simply saying "the trend is up not down," and that's really important.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"best country to work" have you heard of France? I think they have a maximum 30 hour work week. :O Although I guess this depends on your definition of "best" ;)

What are the other differences? I'll take 5 extra hours a week for keeping a much larger part of my pay after taxes and avoiding the unemployment they have. And I'm not a conservative at all, I'm one pushing for higher taxes when necessary, but even I think that hours at work is a terrible way to measure happiness at work. I had a 40 hour a week job and I hated it, now I have a 50 hour a week job and love it.

I'm sick of seeing the right-wing's tired old, sacred myth that "American's pay less taxes." It's total BS. While this isn't targeted directly at the poster, since you seem pretty open to figuring out the truth, but the hint of this myth is there.

Why is it that everyone who trots out this myth feels like they can ignore the "non-tax" taxes of FICA(social security & medicare)?

If you add in what you pay to FICA(social security & medicaid), and also add in the out of pocket expenses you bear for your own health care, now the average American's tax burden is not only almost identical to most of Europe, but is probably a tiny bit higher. Around ~50% or so.

The US federal gov't sure as hell benefits by having half the voting population(Republicans) believe this myth. It's just deceptive accounting semantics—make everyone pay something, but don't call it a "tax", voila, now you can claim to have far lower taxes than any other G8 nations! But it's a lie.

I think most Americans are plain fools when it comes to taxes. No wonder the gov't is able to spend $0.53 of every tax dollar on war and killing poor, non-white human beings, and NOT have riots in the streets, or their greatest existential fear: a mass scale tax "protest" movement. And don't even get me started on how stupid everyone is for the annual tax season "refund" rigmarole. What kind of idiots(other than our insolvent banks) give the Federal gov't an interest free micro-loan over a year?

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