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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#81

Post by r0s »

cryptnoob wrote: post #59
r0s wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many are doing this only as a means to something else - education, rescuing family from poverty, etc Well this is the crux right here, we can't put something like this is context without good data. Do these workers actually make a living wage? What is the cost of living in this part of the world, and most importantly, do any workers actually escape poverty over time? Things like these can be measured, and we should d…

all we have is conjecture based on personal experience I like it! Can I use it? I can refute anything with that. What a tremendously useful sentence. "No baby, you can't know that this will hurt. All you have is conjecture based on personal experience. Now come over here."

Well we are talking about a pretty complex situation in another part of the world with different culture, government and social values. My point is equating it with the labor in the US(or other first world countries) isn't justified without proof, is that really too much to ask for?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#82

Post by EliRivers »

potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

"This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West"

Seems to have a pretty good idea how things work in a factory in China.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#83

Post by weilawei »

roel_v wrote: post #46
dkimball wrote: post #37

The defensiveness of some of these comments is unsettling. Inhumane conditions are inhumane no matter where they are, and no matter what the situation is in the society; it is never right to do to one's workers what this article is describing, not even if there's a lot of competition for their jobs. This is the kind of thing that explains why the United States is not lassiez-faire capitalist anymore; and it emphasize…

Pray tell, what is it exactly about the conditions described in the article that is "inhumane"? I don't see anywhere that people are being forced to work more than 8 hours, on the contrary it clearly states that overtime is optional. Most of the points that are made in the article are standard practice in factories here in Western Europe, like timed bathroom breaks, can't use phones while working etc. The photos are…

Your comment about taking a quick nap is really insightful. I have a little experience with this. From my parents, I acquired the habit of taking small naps. Riding as passenger in a car puts me instantly to sleep (luckily, the same does not apply to driving). I also do this as a general thing--my sleep is more polyphasic and irregular than most people I know. I may be awake at virtually any point in the 24-hour cycle, but not necessarily at the same points each day. Overall, I find that I get about the same amount of sleep, but the odd hours allow me more concentration on work.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#84

Post by r0s »

wdewind wrote: post #74
Zarkonnen wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the big question is if sweatshop labour still does do this. AFAIK most of this work is now done via sub-sub-subcontractors and goes on in special economic zones. Workers are usually employed for the short term and the work may randomly migrate to a SEZ in a different country to take advantage of "tax holidays", periods of no tax for when a company first sets up in a SEZ. There are no permanent factories or pe…

At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. You can be disgruntled with Apple because Chinese workers got hurt making ipods, but the honest truth is that as long as there are people selling cheap labor there will be people buying.

It goes both ways, you have to regulate the supply and the demand, ignore either and nothing changes.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#85

Post by wdewind »

Zarkonnen wrote: post #80
wdewind wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. You can be disgruntled with Apple because Chinese workers got hurt making ipods, but the honest truth is that as long as there are people selling cheap labor there will be people buying.

> At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. Yes, but this in no way absolves us. You don't have to buy just because someone's offering. > Apple should under no circumstances be held accountable for China's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy. In your example, Apple should absolutely be held accountable. If I buy goods I know are stolen, I'm com…

You don't have to buy, but if you want what they are freely offering quite frankly I don't see where Apple (I'm using Apple as example, I mean Apple et al) is wrong.

Apple should under no circumstances be held accountable for China's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy.

And yes, you absolutely have to regulate both the supply and the demand, it's just WHO has to be doing the regulating. China is no fool: if they regulated their GDP would plummet and their ridiculous 9% year on year growth would finally stop.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#86

Post by tokenadult »

jhancock wrote: post #44
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

Your comments are pretty fair and your feelings on what your family went through in '60s Taiwan I take as genuine. However, it was not only hard work that bootstrapped Taiwan out of poverty. Some part of Taiwan's current comfort is due to moving its most extreme labor and environmental problems to other Asian countries, namely China. So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pa…

who do they pass the buck to to lift themselves out of these conditions?

To whoever has the best comparative advantage, as economics has always worked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#87

Post by lutorm »

wdewind wrote: post #32
lutorm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can really, really suck. News at 11." Your comment made me think: Privileged white collar shows complete disregard for those that have it worse. News at 11.

Did you even read his entire comment?

Yes. Some other parts did not give this impression, that's true, but the flippant, sarcastic expression that I quoted didn't help him appear "fair and balanced" in the same sense that someone saying "people get murdered all the time, what's the big deal" wouldn't.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#88

Post by jerf »

jhancock wrote: post #63
jdminhbg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pass the buck to to lift themselves out of these conditions?" Probably Vietnam, and then robots.

I include Vietnam in the current status of China. Robots would be cool. Although I have a high degree of respect for people that can make things in factories...it would be a shame to lose this skill set to robots. Keep in mind that China is already in competition with places like Vietnam. China puts its own provinces in competition with each other in much the same way that states and municipalities in the U.S. compet…

"Although I have a high degree of respect for people that can make things in factories...it would be a shame to lose this skill set to robots."

Broadly speaking, "making things in factories" is not a skill. "Being able to set up efficient factory lines" is, but having robots instead of humans is just another variable in a long list of variables.

I say "broadly speaking" because I'm sure there are exceptions, but I am also sure they are exceptions.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#89

Post by ZeroGravitas »

huherto wrote: post #22
weezer wrote: post #11

I don't condone conditions like this, but everyone should be able to put this in the context of the general standard of living in China. I've been to dorms in Chinese Universities and they don't look much different from the dorms these workers live in. The average income per person is $6,600, but still 10% of China's population, mostly rural people, live on less than $1 a day. (There are some very rich people in the…

Very good comment. They are better off with these jobs than without them. Still, they should have some basic working conditions. Such as max 45hrs a week. 2 week vacation a year, etc.

I'm sure I've read that the 40 hour week was created because someone did some measurements and realized that if you worked people for longer than that on a regular basis, then they got tired and started messing up. That is, the limit is for the benefit of the business, not the employee.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#90

Post by jerf »

confusedcitizen wrote: post #38

If an individual decides to be highly competitive by working crazy hours, is that considered bad? Will her colleagues complain to the labor department? A capitalist country's inhabitants, who belong to a system driven only by output and profit, complaining about labor practices, is the biggest oxymoron. Surely, the Chinese industries tactics are understandable? In order for the Chinese manufacturing industry to be co…

"A capitalist country's inhabitants, who belong to a system driven only by output and profit,"

You seem to be confused about "capitalism". In a capitalist system, workers are in a market as well and negotiate wages with the employers. Aggregate market behavior emerges from the individual behavior of who works for what. Individual employers may make "take it or leave it" offers, but they are embedded in a larger market and if enough people don't "take it", they have to raise their offer. Complaining about labor practices isn't weird, it's a bargaining chip.

It's the totalitarian systems where complaining about labor practices makes no "sense". They work under a de facto oligarchy or even flat-out monopoly in terms of where they can work, and when you have that, you no longer have capitalism. Hint: If you don't see a market, you're not talking about capitalism.

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