The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos • Hacker News Board

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#111

Post by santiagogo » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:50 PM UTC

jjfigueredou wrote: post #40

I am Colombian. This is a really difficult situation, and this Nobel prize was really unexpected. When the plebiscite results where announced last Sunday, the whole country was astonished, even those who where for the No vote, as polls predicted and overwhelming support for Sí. I was very dissapointed with the result, even ashamed, as it was barely a win for No, but shown mostly an abstention level not seen in two de…

Thank you, this is by far the most insightful comment on this thread.

The peace agreements are imperfect and generate impunity, but it is the best possible tradeoff in exchange for long term wellbeing in the country, and Santos has successfully understood and negotiated under this premise, even though it has meant some huge compromises on his and the government's part. This is why he truly deserves the Nobel peace prize.

Unfortunately the opposition manipulated and lied about the contents of the 297 pages peace agreements (which the director of the opposition party openly recognized and for which he will probably go to jail for), and spread baseless claims that old people would lose their pensions, that communism would take over power and private property would be eliminated, which ultimately ended up in them winning the plebiscite.

But even after this big reversal Santos has not renounced to the presidency and is now negotiating with the opposition to see what modifications need to be done so that a peace deal with the guerrilla can finally be closed, coming to a 60 year division.

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#112

Post by Shorel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

pipio21 wrote: post #16

I was in Colombia two weeks ago. I am Spanish so I could talk with the people. Not everybody supports the "peace process" like any Western media displays. In Colombia lots of terrible things have happened. There is people that had made a fortune simply murdering and stealing entire families, and of course drugs. Peace process means legalization of all this crimes, and laundering all the money and power gotten mainly…

What you wrote is a belief shared only by people in Medellin and other areas with strong support for Uribe, and it is far from the truth.

For a start, there were parts about restitution, and that means some people bought lands very cheap because the wars made their rightful owners displace to Bogotá or somewhere else. These lands are in the hands of capitalists and they are a big group supporting the NO.

A big part of the campaign was disinformation, proponents of the NO where saying we would become just like Venezuela. They proponents of the NO did a big campaign about how a big part of the agreements were about LGBT rights and abortion (that was not true), and the backwards conservative people believed that.

And, to further disagree with your 'it makes the Guerrilla a "democratic" party', we had another peace process 25 years ago, with the M-19 Guerrillas. And in fact some of them have been some of the best politicians of the last two decades, like Antonio Navarro, who won the distinction of being the best Colombian mayor, when he was mayor of Pasto.

The people supporting the NO are: clueless people, religious fundamentalists, yuppies who never leave the city and the owners of lands that could lose some terrain in the restitution process.

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#113

Post by Shorel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #103

ceronman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not well informed. In Colombia the majority of the victims of the conflict support the peace process. You can easily see it in the map of how the people voted and you’ll notice that those territories where the war was actually fought got the big majority of the votes supporting the peace treaty. The process didn't legalize the crimes nor allow the guerrilla to keep their drug dealing money. That's just FUD. T…

The process forgave atrocities and put some of the offenders into government jobs. I haven't seen a site that says otherwise. Sure their crimes aren't legalized but forgiveness isn't the same thing, it just acknowledges the crimes were crimes and won't be prosecuted. Negotiating with terrorists where they get off the hook and even allowed to be part of government is not truly a good idea. Most likely the current regi…

It worked really well with the M-19. This is the movement that took over the Justice Palace once. And now they are part of the democracy, being a strong and necessary opposition party to current and past governments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_of_April_Movement#Demobil...

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#114

Post by Shorel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

forinti wrote: post #95

jjfigueredou wrote: post #40

I am Colombian. This is a really difficult situation, and this Nobel prize was really unexpected. When the plebiscite results where announced last Sunday, the whole country was astonished, even those who where for the No vote, as polls predicted and overwhelming support for Sí. I was very dissapointed with the result, even ashamed, as it was barely a win for No, but shown mostly an abstention level not seen in two de…

I was in Colombia in 2010 (what a beatiful country and people - I loved it). There were elections and I saw "De la U" posters all over. So I asked a few people what the U stood for. Nobody seemed to know. This is the party that won the presidency. Did I just happen to ask the wrong people or is political awareness that low in Colombia?

It is word play. They started as a party supporting Uribe (that's where the U comes from), then became oppositors of him, so the meaning had to be retconned.

And yes, political awareness in Colombia is a bit like an Internet forum: where memes are more prevalent than intelligent discourse.

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#115

Post by Shorel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 7:28 PM UTC

jjfigueredou wrote: post #40

I am Colombian. This is a really difficult situation, and this Nobel prize was really unexpected. When the plebiscite results where announced last Sunday, the whole country was astonished, even those who where for the No vote, as polls predicted and overwhelming support for Sí. I was very dissapointed with the result, even ashamed, as it was barely a win for No, but shown mostly an abstention level not seen in two de…

And I hope this prize will help us move a bit towards another agreement.

In fact, just allowing people to vote again would be an effective strategy.

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#116

Post by woodpanel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

diegorbaquero wrote: post #84

neves wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For how long would they receive the money? Economically it makes sense. You will have thousands of people which only work skill is to combat. With the end of the guerrilla, they won't immediately find jobs. If they don't have money, they will become thugs.

2 years. It's cheaper to do that than to continue the war.

Well if that's true I give up. It's indeed a cheap price. Instead of alimony the term "grant" or "transition backing" would be the better fitting word.

Still. Morality is often on bad terms with money. If you want to talk with people about principles they often become fundamental money-wise.

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#117

Post by berntb » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 10:47 PM UTC

dignati wrote: post #102

berntb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably is -- from the viewpoint of those that bombs civilians with barrel bombs. (That said, for all I know the white helmets is a front for ISIS. But either way, the Assad junta and the Russians have an obvious interest in tarring them black.)

> That said, for all I know the white helmets is a front for ISIS Never heard of this. Do you have a source?

Look up the English expression "for all I know".

I might as well have written ""for all I know the white helmets might be working for the lizard men."

Disclaimer: English is not my first language so for all I know, I might be misusing the expression. :-)

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#118

Post by simonmd » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

javpaw wrote: post #97

simonmd wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name ONE developed country that would accept zero jail time and political eligibility for someone convicted of multiple war crimes, with hundreds of years in cumulative prison sentences. That is precisely my point. You are just one of many colombians who can't seem to make the connection between repeatedly helping criminals dodge justice and Colombia's current situation.

What about this in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process And this particular case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_McGuinness

Not directly comparable for two important reasons:

The Good Friday Agreement was signed before the Rome Statutes on War Crimes came into effect (in no small part as a response to similar "blank-slate" deals in the 80's and early 90's). That means that signatory countries are bound by international law to prosecute and punish war crimes and crimes against humanity committed after their signing, proportionally to the severity of the crime. That's what I mean by first-world justice. Even in Ireland, no crimes under the Rome statute after 2002 can be met with the level of impunity the FARC-Santos deal guarantees.

And with respect to McGuinness, even if the Rome statute had been in effect during his participation in the IRA, he was never charged with anything resembling a war crime, even after the Saville Inquiry. He would be more akin to a member of the shady, FARC-friendly political party "Marcha Patriotica". The crimes of the FARC leadership, on the other hand, are fully documented, and sentenced in-absentia. Most of them have over 400 years of cumulative sentences, including murder, extortion, torture, kidnapping, child recruitment etc. All constituting war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#119

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 2:37 AM UTC

yabatopia wrote: post #108

ghostly_s wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're alluding to the atomic bombings? Sorry, honestly not familiar with this argument.

The atomic bombings are the most prominent examples, but there were also the horrible. 'conventional' bombings of German cities like Dresden.

And fire bombing of most of Japan, knowing very well that they would torch hundred of thousands of civilians including women and children.

And the ongoing killing of prisoners who surrendered (a US army speciality in the Pacific, no prisoners, just kill them all)

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize 2016: Juan Manuel Santos

#120

Post by ghostDancer » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 7:39 AM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #62

ceejayoz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carpet bombings of Laos, helping Nixon interfere with negotiations in Paris to end the war, looking the other way while Pakistan massacred people in Bangladesh, supporting Pinochet, etc.

That was past; then came the deal to an armistice to end the Vietnam War (though then after the armistice NVA and VC continued the war and South Vietnam collapsed). The point of that prize was not that there had been war, it was that the parties had signed to end hostilities. In 2009, the peace prize really was quite strange in my opinion: Obama had achieved rather little except winning an election campaign (becoming…

The Obama prize was like giving a gold medal to a runner just because it will run some races and he tells you he wants to win . Nobody could understand it , it's still a mystery the reason behind it.