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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#111

Post by Locke1689 »

Sandman wrote: post #91
ErrantX wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand your sentiment (Im sure I once shared it too). However please bear in mind this is a huge culture clash problem. Extended visits to the region will throw things in a new light (like it did for myself). Now, clearly, conditions definitely are a problem in many places. However the general theory of working at 14/15 is more of a cultural thing and not an issue. I don't think it's correct to dictate soci…

Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they going to do? Really, seriously? Umm... I don't know, maybe go to school and get an education like the kids in Europe and the US do, so they can get a better job than this?

That doesn't really make sense. They probably live in a very poor region of China. If they weren't doing factory work they would probably be doing agricultural work to try and get money to help out their family. There's no "education" route for those in this situation.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#112

Post by Sandman »

ErrantX wrote: post #93
Sandman wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they going to do? Really, seriously? Umm... I don't know, maybe go to school and get an education like the kids in Europe and the US do, so they can get a better job than this?

Heh, see there is the cultural differences right there. An industrial job has little stigma in some parts of the world. Indeed in certain situations it is a big step up from the jobs your parents do. For some those wages are the "better" job (again, not ideal, but you have to consider that as the context). It's not an ideal situation, certainly, and it should be a moral imperative to offer those less well off chances…

I agree that we shouldn't judge other cultures based on the standards of our own culture. However, I somehow doubt that kids working 15 hours a day actually prefer that to having more free time. Nobody would work those hours unless they actually had to. And that is the problem. The fact that those kids have to work under these conditions, instead of going to school, hanging out with their friends and so on. Perhaps some of them would actually like to get an education, to work as an engineer, or a scientist, or something else - but they don't even get that chance, they're stuck working on that assembly line.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#113

Post by krschultz »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #70
rajdevar wrote: post #15

i am feeling lucky to work in U.S.A (best country to work) after reading this..i think i shouldn't brag about a few extra hours i work.

"best country to work" have you heard of France? I think they have a maximum 30 hour work week. :O Although I guess this depends on your definition of "best" ;)

What are the other differences? I'll take 5 extra hours a week for keeping a much larger part of my pay after taxes and avoiding the unemployment they have.

And I'm not a conservative at all, I'm one pushing for higher taxes when necessary, but even I think that hours at work is a terrible way to measure happiness at work. I had a 40 hour a week job and I hated it, now I have a 50 hour a week job and love it.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#114

Post by EliRivers »

BoppreH wrote: post #99
EliRivers wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West" Seems to have a pretty good idea how things work in a factory in China.

One factory in China. It's quite a difference. I bet the article would be a lot quieter if the author visited more factories there.

At the risk of sounding trite and sliding into philosophy, how many people have to do something unacceptable before it becomes acceptable?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#115

Post by yic »

Whenever I see a sensational news like this about China I wonder if the journalist is sincerely stupid or purposely evil. The picture for showing "exhausted workers" is a joke: there is a tradition to have a nap after lunch in China so in many businesses the hour after lunch is basically off hours. The place my parents worked for have 2-3 hours of lunch break so everybody can go home and have a nap. In bigger cities where people can't go home, people find convenient places for the nap: on the desk, or "under" the desk, and all conference rooms are closed for the same purpose as well. Heck I am still keeping that habit and have a small futon by my desk now (glad I have my own office).

The "sweatshop" is also a joke for westerners. In more developed cities in China, workers are free to change their employers just like in the west, and it has been in that way for a couple of decades. Those factories don't offer what we called "hu kou", so the employer has no power to slave the workers except higher pay.

The photo of the worker's dorm room is funny as well. I went to a good university in China (about 14 years ago) and that's how my university dorm looks like. It is difficult for westerners to live in that situation but using that photo as a proof that workers are slaved is misleading.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#116

Post by Sandman »

Locke1689 wrote: post #111
Sandman wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they going to do? Really, seriously? Umm... I don't know, maybe go to school and get an education like the kids in Europe and the US do, so they can get a better job than this?

That doesn't really make sense. They probably live in a very poor region of China. If they weren't doing factory work they would probably be doing agricultural work to try and get money to help out their family. There's no "education" route for those in this situation.

Quite right. But don't you see that as a problem? Shouldn't kids in China have equal opportunities as their American and European counterparts? Shouldn't they be allowed to get an education instead of working on an assembly line or in the field?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#117

Post by watmough »

lsc wrote: post #36
watmough wrote: post #8

So, hypothetically, wage parity might be achieved by Chinese workers making 5 - 7x more than they do now, whilst American worker would make 5 - 7x less . Obviously prices in the US for healthcare, food and housing need to come down somewhat.

I think what we see is a (hopefully temporary) situation where there are people so poor that they are willing to work cheaper than machines. Because Americans are not going to go back to doing that work, it's not really a situation where Chinese labour is competing against American labour. the Chinese labour is competing against American /machines/

Chinese labor is competing and slaughtering the US machines.

There was a story on feats of Chinese manufacturing on YC not long ago, showing a guy sewing Chumby covers in 4 seconds flat. No machine could do that.

If you go look at HobbyCity, there are 30 gram brushless motors that are efficient, and can suck down 9 amps. Great for powering foamies, and most likely built and wound by hand. Cost $9 and up.

It's hard to conceive of an America that could perform such feats. It's been and gone.

I don't know if wage pressures will push wages up in China, but I do know there are a lot of qualified people unemployed, and plenty of unemployed unqualified people, and a government that needs to steer away from a housing and stocks bubble.

I'm not expecting this to be temporary, much as I wish life for the Chinese workers could improve.

Disclaimer: Typed on an iMac (Made in China), Mitsumi/Apple Bluetooth Keyboard (Made in China), MS Mouse (Made in China).

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#118

Post by ErrantX »

Sandman wrote: post #112
ErrantX wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, see there is the cultural differences right there. An industrial job has little stigma in some parts of the world. Indeed in certain situations it is a big step up from the jobs your parents do. For some those wages are the "better" job (again, not ideal, but you have to consider that as the context). It's not an ideal situation, certainly, and it should be a moral imperative to offer those less well off chances…

I agree that we shouldn't judge other cultures based on the standards of our own culture. However, I somehow doubt that kids working 15 hours a day actually prefer that to having more free time. Nobody would work those hours unless they actually had to . And that is the problem. The fact that those kids have to work under these conditions, instead of going to school, hanging out with their friends and so on. Perhaps…

> Nobody would work those hours unless they actually had to

Patio11 will tell you the hours Japanese salarymen have to work to get anywhere. Same sort of situation; but it's not kids so it's fine ;)

If they don't work there what do they do - how do they go to (or afford) school? For the most part this is not a "job for life". There is a career path of sorts and, eventually, you work your way up.

This is partly what I mean by stigma: why is school the "better" option. (I can't argue with the hanging out with friends thing :))

I'm sure many would like to have an education; that's the problem to fix - how to offer it to them!

I'm not necessarily condoning this as a good situation but it fucks me off when people like the GP make very broad, judging statements with no context or experience of the culture and situation.

EDIT: I will say that while I have met several people that work in these places they were all older work-study types. So they were at schools, just working like stink in holidays/downtime. Hell; I did that working on my Aunts farm (voluntarily) doing 14 hour days :) (yes, I realise I had a choice there; not trying to compare too deeply)

I have no idea if there are these very young people working there (though I was told there were) or to what extent / why they are forced to be there.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#119

Post by Zarkonnen »

tokenadult wrote: post #86
jhancock wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments are pretty fair and your feelings on what your family went through in '60s Taiwan I take as genuine. However, it was not only hard work that bootstrapped Taiwan out of poverty. Some part of Taiwan's current comfort is due to moving its most extreme labor and environmental problems to other Asian countries, namely China. So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pa…

who do they pass the buck to to lift themselves out of these conditions? To whoever has the best comparative advantage, as economics has always worked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

So, pardon me, what you're saying is that someone's got to be exploited in the end for the system to work? Don't sign me up.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#120

Post by DrJokepu »

jxcole wrote: post #79
DrJokepu wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Industrial robots are extensively used in the Western world in industrial production. However they are rather expensive and are only worth installing for tasks that don't require any human brain activity, can be done 24/7 (as robots don't require sleep it's more economical to run them 24/7) and not change too often so regular reprogramming is not required. Also, they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers as…

1) "they are rather expensive" - They are getting cheaper 2) "for tasks that don't require any human brain activity" - Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity? That is what the star factory worker in this article was doing. 3) "they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers" - If the point of robots is to get rid of manual labore…

Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity?

No it's more like things such as disassembling a batch of defective hairdriers, typically low volume things.

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