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Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

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Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#91

Why is it that in such cases, the government reaches for the CEO right away; but when Wells Fargo employees open millions of fraudulent accounts, it's not the CEO's fault? If I were to commit identity theft (which is basically what the WF employees did), then I would be facing jail time; why hasn't anyone in WF been charged with criminal fraud yet? Why not the CEO?

I think Matt Levine's take on this is right on: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-09-09/wells-far.... Senior management wanted employees to do REAL cross-selling to make money, but the metrics were set so high that employees turned to fake accounts to meet the standard. The fake accounts did not benefit the bank in any substantial way:

So that's about 2.1 million fake deposit and credit-card accounts, of which about 100,000 -- fewer than 5 percent -- brought in any fee income to Wells Fargo. The total fee income was $2.4 million, or about $1.14 per fake account. And that overstates the profitability: Wells Fargo also enrolled people for debit cards and online banking, but the CFPB doesn't bother to count those incidents, or suggest that any of them led to any fees. Which makes sense: You'd expect online banking and debit cards to be free, if you never use them or even know about them. Meanwhile, all this dumb stuff seems to have occupied huge amounts of employee time that could have been spent on more productive activities. If you divide the $2.4 million among the 5,300 employees fired for setting up fake accounts, you get about $450 per employee. Presumably it cost Wells Fargo way more than that just to replace them.

It seems senior management set up a stupid employee incentive program, but were not intentionally involved in the fraud.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To remind you, this is what you said: "If it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it". This means that monetary exchange precludes free choice. This is independent of what is being exchanged, as you say it.

No, it means that if sex were their free choice, they would not need to be paid for sex (they could have it as much or as little as they like). Instead of trying to wordplay this in HN comments, why don't you take a look at https://www.demandabolition.org/resources/evidence-against-l... -- they've done a far better job than I ever could on lining up the different arguments -- and there are many! -- against blithely s…

[deleted]

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#93
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To remind you, this is what you said: "If it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it". This means that monetary exchange precludes free choice. This is independent of what is being exchanged, as you say it.

No, it means that if sex were their free choice, they would not need to be paid for sex (they could have it as much or as little as they like). Instead of trying to wordplay this in HN comments, why don't you take a look at https://www.demandabolition.org/resources/evidence-against-l... -- they've done a far better job than I ever could on lining up the different arguments -- and there are many! -- against blithely s…

If selling fruit was the shopkeeper's free choice, they would not need to be paid for fruit.

This sentence has structurally the same form. If you think it's ridiculous, it can only be because you think there is something special about sex - i.e. it is sacred in some way. And thus your position actually doesn't relate to free will.

I think you're very confused. Your statements aren't logically consistent and I have to make guesses and leaps of dodgy inference to make any sense of them at all.

I believe you have a prior position on the morality of prostitution and are using arguments you don't understand to defend the position. I think a different tack would be wiser.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#94

Why is it that in such cases, the government reaches for the CEO right away; but when Wells Fargo employees open millions of fraudulent accounts, it's not the CEO's fault? If I were to commit identity theft (which is basically what the WF employees did), then I would be facing jail time; why hasn't anyone in WF been charged with criminal fraud yet? Why not the CEO?

Wells Fargo execs have better lawyers, and they went to the same schools as prosecutors, they dress alike, and there is no significant revolving door arrangement between prosecutors and online prostitution enterprises.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's shameful to force someone to do something without their consent. Your interpretation of consent seems very bizarre however. Inherently anyone paying anyone else to do anything means they wouldn't have done it without getting paid. Does that mean they didn't consent?

No, it's shameful to coerce someone into having sex without their consent, not merely to coerce someone to "do something." The rest of your question is not relevant.

So if I coerce someone into cleaning my house without their consent that isn't shameful? Seems coercing someone to do anything without their consent is shameful.

If someone only consents to cleaning a house if they're paid enough money to do it that isn't "without their consent" by any definition of the word I'm aware of. It's unclear to me why sex workers should be specially called out and stigmatized.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#96
post #8

Is the distinction between this page and the kind of things posted on craigslist, strictly that the posters had to pay to list their ads? Or do prostitutes not post on craigslist? AFAIK Newmark hasn't had to deal with any of this. I'd be interested to know if there is something similar and legal in countries that allow prostitution (Netherlands?). Seems like they were making a lot of revenue for what is basically ill…

Craigslist had a section, and shut it down. http://gawker.com/5630687/your-post-craigslist-guide-to-buyi... Edit: Newmark has had to deal with it. Check here for more; http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2...

Craigslist still has plenty of prostitution going on in their "casual encounters" section...

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#97
post #91

Why is it that in such cases, the government reaches for the CEO right away; but when Wells Fargo employees open millions of fraudulent accounts, it's not the CEO's fault? If I were to commit identity theft (which is basically what the WF employees did), then I would be facing jail time; why hasn't anyone in WF been charged with criminal fraud yet? Why not the CEO?

I think Matt Levine's take on this is right on: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-09-09/wells-far... . Senior management wanted employees to do REAL cross-selling to make money, but the metrics were set so high that employees turned to fake accounts to meet the standard. The fake accounts did not benefit the bank in any substantial way: So that's about 2.1 million fake deposit and credit-card accounts, of…

There's still a duty of vigilance.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#98
post #57
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The CEO of a small internet company almost certainly has a hand in everything the company does. The CEO of a large corporation has no idea what the line workers are doing.[1] If a bunch of Yahoo employees had gone off and run as sex-trafficking site off Yahoo's servers, they wouldn't go arrest Marissa Mayer. Not because "lobbying" but because that would be stupid and unreasonable.…

You are talking about 5,000 current employees being fired and many employees who were fired for reporting it. If he didn't know, then he must not know other things about Wells Fargo that are equally important.

> You are talking about 5,000 current employees being fired and many employees who were fired for reporting it. If he didn't know, then he must not know other things about Wells Fargo that are equally important.

I'm sure that's the case, and I'm sure it's also the case for most CEOs of massive companies.

Wells Fargo has more than 250,000 employees and more than 6000 branches -- more branches than any other US bank. There is nobody who knows everything that is going on. It's just not possible.

The number of employees fired represents a tiny fraction of the total number of employees -- about 2% or less.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sex workers don't care about your morals. They have different morals than you and care about different things. Stop telling them and other people what morals they should have. Regulated prostitution may be bad in your eyes but unregulated prostitution is even worse for those who are already in this industry. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

We have a perfectly good approach already; it's called the Nordic model. Arrest johns, not prostitutes. And there are thousands of former sex workers that will give you an earful about what you think you know about prostitution and what prostitutes think.

Every model has trade-offs, the trade-off of the Nordic model is that clients are less willing to disclose information which makes it more difficult for sex workers to weed out violent troublemakers. Implementing the Nordic model would in some cases undo some recent advances in identifying and blocking these ugly clients and result in some workers being violently abused or even possibly killed.

Don't go thinking there is a silver bullet here, all solutions somewhat suck.

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