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Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#151

Post by maverick_iceman »

JDiculous wrote: post #141
jfoutz wrote: post #35

Politicians are amateurs. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Politicians are experts at politics, they can achieve consensus in seemingly impossible circumstances. If you pick a random politician, and ask them to design a transmission, or perform open heart surgery, they'd do as poorly as you or me. Yes, there are politicians from all walks of life, and you can probably find a surgeon politician. In general, the…

How do we fix this? Here's an idea - direct democracy where one can only vote on a topic that he/she has proven a minimal set of competence in. This could be in the form of an exam on a topic (eg. economics) and/or logic test. The goal is that one should not be allowed to vote on something like climate change without knowing the science and data behind climate change. We need to acknowledge that the world is too comp…

This is an extremely naive view. The sort of direct democracy you propose will most likely end up systematically discriminating against various groups.

>As long as there are politicians, there will always be corruption

Corruption is unlikely to go away with politicians, my guess is that it'll be there as long as human nature stays the same.

>Ideally of course we'd have AI deciding our best course of action because humans are inherently biased

AI can be as biased as the training data you feed it.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#152

Post by ArkyBeagle »

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #128
Houshalter wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there aren't a finite number of factories. If more factory work gets automated, then it will reduce the cost of building more factories and producing even more goods. Whereas service jobs seem more finite. There is only a finite demand for burgers or shelf stockers, unless you increase the population. I really don't understand how a mostly service based economy is sustainable. In any case, the service based jobs…

Human desires are more infinite though. We all want a bigger house, faster car, cooler phone, a masseuse appointment every week, etc.

Not necessarily... 'course I'm well over 40 and my kids have moved out. FWIW, my kids don't much seem to want these things, either.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#153

Post by ArkyBeagle »

In the 19th Century a lot of people were "physiocrats" - people for whom all progress had to relate somehow to the agricultural production of food. This was most stridently expressed in the denial of ( some ) patents to Cyrus McCormick for the combine harvester.

Manufacturing ended that, especially "factory farming".

So now, the logistics and communications revolutions are doing to manufacturing what manufacturing did to agriculture.

It's the circle of life...

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#154

Post by chillacy »

JDiculous wrote: post #141
jfoutz wrote: post #35

Politicians are amateurs. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Politicians are experts at politics, they can achieve consensus in seemingly impossible circumstances. If you pick a random politician, and ask them to design a transmission, or perform open heart surgery, they'd do as poorly as you or me. Yes, there are politicians from all walks of life, and you can probably find a surgeon politician. In general, the…

How do we fix this? Here's an idea - direct democracy where one can only vote on a topic that he/she has proven a minimal set of competence in. This could be in the form of an exam on a topic (eg. economics) and/or logic test. The goal is that one should not be allowed to vote on something like climate change without knowing the science and data behind climate change. We need to acknowledge that the world is too comp…

> one should not be allowed to vote on something like climate change without knowing the science and data behind climate change

Okay, so in states where the majority don't believe in climate change and evolution, you'll have them design tests to exclude voters who believe in evolution/climate change from voting?

> This could be in the form of an exam on a topic (eg. economics) and/or logic test

We already have a long history of stifling voting rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_St...

Some that stood out:

* Poll tax prevented the poor from voting * At one point, religious tests prevented non-christians from voting * Literacy tests prevented blacks from voting

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#155

Post by maverick_iceman »

rayiner wrote: post #112
pavlov wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't understand. Helping a fellow human being who is too weak to care for herself is almost the definition of dignity to me. It may be dirty work, but there's nothing more important. In contrast, the manufacturing job turns you into a pre-programmed cog in a big machine that consumes substantial amounts of natural resources to produce something that will most likely end up in the junk heap in a couple of years. Wh…

Dignity of work doesn't have anything to do with importance. It's about power relationships: vendors are in a different relationship with their customers than service workers are with the people they serve. In Manhattan, a nanny probably makes more than a journalist--but is there any comparison in which job is more dignified?

What's undignified about a nanny's job?

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#156

Post by whybroke »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #29
rfrank wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing also provides jobs for both high and low skill workers. As such can be seen as more valuable to a community than say, a software company that only hires engineers and a CS center in a different state. Manufacturing was one of the best roads for a low skill worker to earn good money and move up the rung economically - something that only seems to be getting harder as time goes on.

It may seem to be getting harder, but in reality it's not. Rank based measures of mobility are stable. Since income inequality is up, absolute mobility has also increased. https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/chettyetalAERPP2014.pdf

No, the result of increased wealth inequality, even if you maintained the same level of social mobility, will worsen not improve situation. The description of a rise in absolute mobility would be a misunderstanding of the issue.

If that is too theoretic, consider the analogy of a lottery where one group of children win automatically and an other group has say a 10% chance of winning during their life. Increasing the prize (i.e. a rise in inequity among classes) serves only to worsens the situation not only for the median and average members but the vast bulk of the lower class since those who don't rise (the vast majority) are now even worse off relatively.

Or indeed by your logic simply raising the salary of a CEO by a massive amount also raises the "absolute mobility" of all other employees

So unless mobility also raises by at least a corresponding amount, any worsening of inequality at birth will only worsen the situation by every meaningful standard. And even then it is probably a bad idea.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#157

Post by rangibaby »

Manufacturing represents middle class jobs that have largely gone away thanks to globalization, outsourcing, and automation among other things. One of the reasons the Boomers were so rich compared to following generations was that it was easy to get one of those jobs with minimal education, a college degree was not a necessity to make a decent wage and buy a house, a car, etc.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#158

Post by hasenj »

JDiculous wrote: post #141
jfoutz wrote: post #35

Politicians are amateurs. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Politicians are experts at politics, they can achieve consensus in seemingly impossible circumstances. If you pick a random politician, and ask them to design a transmission, or perform open heart surgery, they'd do as poorly as you or me. Yes, there are politicians from all walks of life, and you can probably find a surgeon politician. In general, the…

How do we fix this? Here's an idea - direct democracy where one can only vote on a topic that he/she has proven a minimal set of competence in. This could be in the form of an exam on a topic (eg. economics) and/or logic test. The goal is that one should not be allowed to vote on something like climate change without knowing the science and data behind climate change. We need to acknowledge that the world is too comp…

The problem then is it gives too much power to few people. Especially in the case of AI.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#159

Post by AstralStorm »

Houshalter wrote: post #95
philipkglass wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a finite demand for manufactured goods too. If anything, the price elasticity for manufactured goods seems likely to be lesser than that for restaurant meals; I'd eat out more often if it cost less, but I'm not going to buy additional dishwashers or dining tables for my house no matter how cheap they get. I'm not going to buy light bulbs or printers faster than they need replacement due to failure. With laser…

While the number of goods might be limited, the quality is not. If you have more disposable income, you are just as likely to spend it on a better car, a better house, a better laptop, a better phone, etc. Higher quality goods require more complicated manufacturing, more resources, more workers, and longer supply chains. All of which employ more people. I'm not sure the quantity of goods is limited either. Looking at…

These high quality goods require more sophisticated automation, not more workers. Unless you expect a future of hand made items.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#160

Post by AstralStorm »

hulahoof wrote: post #103
Daishiman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a finite demand for goods too. I don't have unlimited room to fill my house with crap, and if I buy more advanced tools and things that replace a multitude of tools, my total demand will go down. It may be a generational thing, but I just don't see people owning or wanting to own as much stuff as the generation before. A desk full of organization tools like a rolodex, card holder, pencils and notebooks just d…

In a similar vein desks are now covered in speakers, USB drives, monitors, laptops etc which all have a lifecycle just as the Rolodex and card holder became obsolete. These items are also harder to produce and have, at least in my eyes, shorter product life

Speaker technology (analog) interface has not really changed since 1930 or so.

Monitors are newer, but you still see analog VGA ports and in TV, composite connectors.

It is the new digital interfaces that face obsolescence.

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