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Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

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Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#351
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

Responding with an ad hominem - whether at the author of the quote or the poster of it by association - is both an ineffective response (the appeal to emotion signals an inability to argue rationally) and lowers the quality of discussion (by taking it away from the point, into emotional territory). Constant appeals to emotion and resorting to a wide array of fallacies allows for strongmen to build tribes which follow…

> Constant appeals to emotion and resorting to a wide array of fallacies

That was pretty much the entirely of Atlas Shrugged. Make a Mary-Sue world of perfect rhetorical convenience populated by heroes and strawmen...

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#352
post #167

I think the attitude here that most tech companies are rolling over and just complying without a single ethical consideration is misplaced. The government has been doing an excellent job of basically extorting these companies into compliance. They threaten the full weight of the US government's wraith and then tie every order up with classifications and gag orders. You aren't legally allowed to talk to other companie…

Well, they've already "made an example" of the only company to truly stand in their way. Look at Qwest - you talk to the average citizen and their takeaway was that justice was served | A corrupt CEO ran the company into the ground and went to prison. Hurrah! Don't pay attention to the fact he denied installing what he considered unconstitutional wire taps for the NSA resulting in the government pulling almost a bill…

The Palantir witchhunt against Peter Thiel is another example -- threatening to invalidate government contracts because of some imagined discrimination due to Thiel's political views.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#353
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding with an ad hominem - whether at the author of the quote or the poster of it by association - is both an ineffective response (the appeal to emotion signals an inability to argue rationally) and lowers the quality of discussion (by taking it away from the point, into emotional territory). Constant appeals to emotion and resorting to a wide array of fallacies allows for strongmen to build tribes which follow…

> Responding with an ad hominem - whether at the author of the quote or the poster of it by association - is both an ineffective response (the appeal to emotion signals an inability to argue rationally) and lowers the quality of discussion (by taking it away from the point, into emotional territory). Thankfully, that was not an ad hominem. It was a quote against a particular BOOK. > Constant appeals to emotion and re…

There are many ways to categorize and define argumentational fallacies, and so it is often difficult and disingenuous to argue over exactly which fallacy is violated by a particular utterance.

But since this is blown up since I last looked at it, why not take a moment to try to diagnose this.

It is not in fact an 'ad hominem', as you said, since an ad hominem attacks an argument by attacking a person (or group). Though it is, to me, perfectly fine to call it that, since that is the result, the second quote does not in fact attack any argument directly.

It is a response to the act of quoting Rand, rather than to anything specific that Rand was quoted as saying.

Secondly it is also not an 'appeal to emotion', since an appeal to emotion is again directed at making a particular argument, in this case by making people feel instead of think. This again does not fit the second quote, because it does not make any specific argument at all.

From what I can tell, the most descriptive term we can find for what makes this quote by 'John Rogers' so upsetting, as evidenced by the amount of discussion below and above, is that it is a 'smear'.

Its nature is that it does not attack the argument made by the quote it is posted in reply to, but instead attacks anyone who might believe, and quote, anything from that book, presumably including the OP.

To quote Wikipedia [1]:

> A [smear] is an intentional, premeditated effort to undermine an individual's or group's reputation, credibility, and character.

...

> Smear tactics differ from normal discourse or debate in that they do not bear upon the issues or arguments in question. A smear is a simple attempt to malign a group or an individual with the aim of undermining their credibility.

> Smears often consist of ad hominem attacks in the form of unverifiable rumors and distortions, half-truths, or even outright lies; smear campaigns are often propagated by gossip magazines. Even when the facts behind a smear campaign are demonstrated to lack proper foundation, the tactic is often effective because the target's reputation is tarnished before the truth is known.

> Smears are also effective in diverting attention away from the matter in question and onto the a specific individual or group. The target of the smear typically must focus on correcting the false information rather than on the original issue.

> Smear tactics are considered by many to be a low, disingenuous form of discourse; they are nevertheless very common.

So, while this is not strictly one of the traditional logical fallacies, I think it is nevertheless clearly a bad form of discourse, and frankly inappropriate.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smear_campaign

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#354
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

Responding with an ad hominem - whether at the author of the quote or the poster of it by association - is both an ineffective response (the appeal to emotion signals an inability to argue rationally) and lowers the quality of discussion (by taking it away from the point, into emotional territory). Constant appeals to emotion and resorting to a wide array of fallacies allows for strongmen to build tribes which follow…

Milton Friedman made a similar point about the advantages of a complex tax code for those in power.

A complex tax code favors those that will contribute to politicians in order to gain a special benefit or avoid a specific harm. Paraphrased obviously. Here's the original lecture: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#355
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what the actual personal consequences are for someone going public that there is an NSL requested. I seriously doubt they'd destroy a major public company with lots of employees/voters/users; fines, maybe, and going after execs, but the Government loses most of its power to threaten things once the act is done and everything is public. I think you win in the court of public opinion if it's a broad program li…

It's an experiment that I would personally be willing to try were I a high-visibility C-level exec. Been to jail, not that bad, mostly just boring; and certainly the jail that CEO me goes to would likely be better than the jail the real me has been a guest of. But the kind of person willing to tweak the nose of the government doesn't usually get to be C-anything. As you point out, best to wisely pick your battle as y…

For one, it depends where you come from. If you earn in the neighborhood of $25M a year it's likely you will find jail less comfortable than your home.

Secondly, breaking the law or even challenging NFLs carries a personal risk of going to jail, while silently complying carries almost zero personal risk, and a small risk of damaging the company's reputation if/when someone finds out. If you're not very strongly principled, the choice is really easy to make.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#356
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the speculation that Stamos' departure was related to this? The timing would seem suspicious otherwise. If so, one wonders if he would take a similar principled stance a second time at Facebook. Much harder to jump ship for greener pastures while already riding the biggest rocketship in town.

I do not believe Stamos would remain at Facebook after something like this. But we're not much more than acquaintances (we both worked at NCC, and were prior to that former business rivals or whatever you call two people with similar roles at competing firms). I like him. I just want to be clear that I'm not speculating about Stamos's motives.

[deleted]

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#357
post #165
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't the whole premise that the Big Companies actually control the government? "They threaten the full weight of the US government's wraith and then tie every order up with classifications and gag orders." full weight? You mean like a small fine ? That's what happened to Wells Fargo. The govt . seems really angry about it, but what can they really do to a corp that is considered an entity?

Maximizing shareholder value is like a death grip that squeezes any public corporation into not making financial gambles on ethical grounds. It's so important that these leaks go public for two critical reasons: 1) with that type of financial regulatory environment for public companies, the only way to create incentives for that type of consumer protection play is when it has monetary consequences if they do nothing…

> the TLDR is that the judge said the customers will never know their email is being read so how can you claim that a privacy violation has occurred?

Really? A judge really said that? So if I place a camera in my neighbors' bathroom, and they never find out about it, everything's okay? Does it work with other crimes? If I steal millions from a company, but they never figure it out because their accounting department is sub-par, then I'm fine??

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which reminds me of this great passage in Atlas Shrugged : “Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough…

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

Is that the John Rodgers that gave us masterpieces like American Outlaws and Catwoman?

Maybe I'm wrong/misremembering but I feel like all criticism of Atlas Shrugged I've read seems to assume that whoever reads it will be brainwashed into becoming a fanboy who cannot reflect on the work. I thought it was one of the more interesting books I've read but a bit long winded. I don't think it's well written but the content was interesting (I do think "The Driver" by Garrett is a better book). I do appreciate interesting ideas even if I don't agree with them (I partly agree with quite a few thoughts by Rand at least on some level)

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#359

Friendly reminder: the FBI and NSA are part of the executive branch of government and report to the President of the United States. Make no mistake -- there absolutely is someone who could stop this. The fact that this clearly unconstitutional activity not only continued after being exposed, but actually appears to has expanded in its scope, leaves us with but one conclusion: the President supports this activity and…

Or he is being blackmailed by an entity that knows enough of his secrets to destroy him.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#360
post #87

Secret URL for deleting your Yahoo account. https://edit.yahoo.com/config/delete_user

Consider setting up your own mail server. Decentralization is the most effective way of fighting this.

Rent a cheap, dedicated server (a VPS provides poor privacy protection), encrypt the root partition and install sovereign (https://github.com/sovereign/sovereign).

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