Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence • Hacker News Board

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#231

Post by nickpsecurity » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11

I think the attitude here that most tech companies are rolling over and just complying without a single ethical consideration is misplaced. The government has been doing an excellent job of basically extorting these companies into compliance. They threaten the full weight of the US government's wraith and then tie every order up with classifications and gag orders. You aren't legally allowed to talk to other companie…

I agree. I'll go further to hold the U.S. citizens responsible for the apathy in dealing with rampant deceit and abuses of power by intelligence companies. One set of those were what led up to secret courts, mass surveillances, etc. Any number of leaks showing they were full of crap wasn't enough for citizens to take action. They took action on many inconsequential matters, though.

So, if citizens continuously allow or even create (surveillance supporters) a police state, then the companies operating in it are under no ethical obligation to take risk to protect them from that police state's activities. Those companies would actually be putting in more effort and taking more risk than most of the citizens themselves. That's an unreasonable expectation.

U.S. citizens need to get their shit straight in this country. Interestingly, the vast majority are pushing for the two most corrupt candidates imaginable for this election who have each mocked the Constitution and support the police state apparatus. Trying to protect them is a lost cause. Better to invest that effort into a different democracy whose people actually give a shit vs this one.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#232

Post by fattire » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

joeblow9999 wrote: post #224

CodeMage wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

Doesn't mean the quote isn't apt and good.

It's ridiculously bad mustache-twirling dialogue that compares poorly to the grunts of an orc.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#233

Post by declan » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #146

Bartweiss wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been wondering about this myself. Apple got a mixed response when they pushed back on the FBI, but certainly not a clearly negative one. Lavabit's rather alarming case earned them substantial respect in the tech circles that learned about the matter. Certainly whistleblowers have faced immense consequences, but they've been government or military employees engaged in major disclosures. To jail a 'captain of indu…

Also committing to a "fuck NSLs, we'll just go public and take it all the way legally" stance upfront might deter NSLs in the first place.

NSLs are likely not the case here with Yahoo (and in fact are not the most significant privacy threat, IMHO). An NSL is a demand from the FBI, not a court order. NSLs also have unique First Amendment vulnerabilities that would help a company choosing to publicize receiving one.

A FISA court order, which can force you to do much more than NSLs, is the more significant operational threat to Internet companies. These court orders typically have "do not disclose" provisions. Willfully violating that court order will almost certainly result in contempt charges.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#234

Post by CobrastanJorji » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 10:59 PM UTC

tkinom wrote: post #208

Since all these companies (Yahoo, Google, FB, MSFT, etc) all operate and with users in other countries, what happen when other countries/governments demand the same "search/access" of info?

Well, if you're Google in 2010, the answer was "stop putting any servers in China, and accept getting blocked by China."

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#235

Post by tanderson92 » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #200

dmix wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maximizing shareholder value is like a death grip that squeezes any public corporation into not making financial gambles on ethical grounds. It's so important that these leaks go public for two critical reasons: 1) with that type of financial regulatory environment for public companies, the only way to create incentives for that type of consumer protection play is when it has monetary consequences if they do nothing…

> Maximizing shareholder value is like a death grip that squeezes any public corporation into not making financial gambles on ethical grounds. Will this meme never die on HN? There is an obvious counter-example: Apple, a public corporation who publicly fought a similar request. The idea that "maximizing shareholder value" is some sort of inescapable Faustian bargain is just not supported by the facts. People who run…

> > Maximizing shareholder value is like a death grip that squeezes any public corporation into not making financial gambles on ethical grounds.

> Will this meme never die on HN? There is an obvious counter-example: Apple, a public corporation who publicly fought a similar request.

This is a poor example to use to disprove the claim; Apple used the FBI encounter to prove to customers that they were tough on security, a component of their value proposition to a segment of the customer base.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#236

Post by zelon88 » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 11:02 PM UTC

walter_bishop wrote: post #225

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Joseph Nacchio story is very complicated and not the best example of the point you are making, sadly. Qwest was undeniably naughty with the books on his watch and they had a case. I agree it sucks, just saying he's not the best example.

So the NSA didn't demand access to Qwest computers and then didn't prosecute Nacchio when he refused. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-a...

I'm wondering which telecom wound up winning the contracts and complied. They obviously went somewhere else instead.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#237

Post by adrr » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 11:02 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #58

idlewords wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most damning part of this story is that Mayer decided to comply without telling her chief security officer. That really does make it look like Yahoo rolled over without a fight.

Knowing Stamos' background, it's possible that she was specifically required not to tell him.

Yahoo is a public company, it has to follow SOX which requires a security policy to be followed.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#238

Post by nickpsecurity » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 11:05 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #152

secfirstmd wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this argue...Open Whisper Systems managed to not roll over and they are only less than half a dozen people...

Devils advocate: They have less to lose.

Advocate for reality: they don't mean shit in bigger scheme of things since virtually nobody uses them. So secret groups put less effort into them. Yahoo, Gmail, Lavabit, various IM's... all were in the Snowden leaks as SIGINT-enabled through taps, black bags, or "FBI coercion." If Whisper got that important, I think we'd see bad stuff happen to the company or Moxie.

So, enjoy the added protection from nation states of low uptake if you're using it. :)

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#239

Post by euxneks » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 11:05 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11

I think the attitude here that most tech companies are rolling over and just complying without a single ethical consideration is misplaced. The government has been doing an excellent job of basically extorting these companies into compliance. They threaten the full weight of the US government's wraith and then tie every order up with classifications and gag orders. You aren't legally allowed to talk to other companie…

See, the thing is, if the company had a way to encrypt all communications so that they couldn't read it, they wouldn't be in this position :\

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#240

Post by skue » Tue, Oct 04, 2016, 11:09 PM UTC

pascalmemories wrote: post #218

mtgx wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were the case, then Apple would've caved in, too. Mayer was probably too new and too scared to deal with this, especially when she had to think about her new baby. My point is it has less to do with "Yahoo being scared about being destroyed by the US government" and more with Mayer's own personal fear of the US government, and easily caving to such threats, whether it was because of her baby, because of weak…

> Mayer was probably too new and too scared to deal with this, especially when she had to think about her new baby. OK, I normally think misogyny claims are over-blown and people are way too sensitive. But your comment positively reeks of misogyny. Rather than go for a down-vote, because you're able to edit your comment, I think you should reconsider the phrasing and delete the misogyny. If your comment doesn't stand…

> > Mayer was probably too new and too scared to deal with this, especially when she had to think about her new baby.

> OK, I normally think misogyny claims are over-blown and people are way too sensitive. But your comment positively reeks of misogyny. Rather than go for a down-vote, because you're able to edit your comment, I think you should reconsider the phrasing and delete the misogyny.

Having newborn twins at home could certainly be a factor in any CEO's willingness to make an ideological stand in the face of jail time, regardless of the CEO's gender. Plus there's a wealth of feminist writing about the potential for gender disagreement when it comes to this very question, going back to Kohlberg, Gilligan, and an imaginary guy named Heinz.[1]

FWIW, I do agree that any privileged group should be conscientious when discussing others who might sometimes feel like or be seen as outsiders, and that this applies to guys in tech. But your comment seems a bit over the top and risks shutting down discussion about an important topic... whether the government took advantage of the fact that Mayer had newborns at home when they pressured her to comply.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages...