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Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

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Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#71

Post by tbrownaw »

roel_v wrote: post #16
Tichy wrote: post #7

I might receive an offer for a reasonably interesting job soon, and have been wondering how to justify going "employed". So far my impression is that the bitterest pill for me to swallow would be having no chances. If I come up with a great idea, I won't benefit. I assume here that the usual corporate "bonuses" are not even worth talking about. Salary raises tend to be Therefore I wonder if employees are even the bes…

I don't know what area you're from, but calling (supposedly yearly) salary raises of (just) under 10% to 'hardly make up for inflation' seems like, to put it mildly, a stretch.

Depends how much you believe the official inflation numbers. These people http://www.shadowstats.com/ > seem to think the official US rate underreports by about 2-3%.

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#72

Post by ido »

Tichy wrote: post #68
ido wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like it to me too. I never had to think too much about expenses as a (single, childless) programmer here in Vienna (which is not known for very good developer salaries). Looking at other programmers here it seems my experience is not out of the ordinary. Sounds like a very exceptional situation.

I did not have to think much about expenses either. But did you plan to buy a house, or start a company? That is, have you tried to get significant savings on the side? Also, how old are you? I think when young, one doesn't really have a feeling for how much money one might need in the long run. Alone, I don't need more than maybe a 30m^2 flat. I don't crave any luxuries (except a fast computer+internet). Once family…

I'm 26, living alone in a 3 bedroom apartment, there is no need for a car in Vienna and higher education is free here ;)

My burn rate is about 18k a year.

When earning 35k Euros per year I managed to save a bit less than 1/3 of my nett salary (taxes + social & medical insurance added up to about 30% (not counting tax refunds I got at the end of the year), which I think is lower than I would have payed in Germany).

I've since quit that job and my most recent offers have been for 45k euros a year.

I did try to start my own 1-man shop (and failed) with the money I saved while working, my savings lasted for about a year (actually it could have lasted more, I didn't deplete all of my savings - I did get unemployment benefits during that time tho).

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#73

Post by wallflower »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #70
_delirium wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last seems like it'd have a lot of ways to backfire, though. Will there be a grace period in bad economies, so people who lose their jobs, or involuntarily get moved to part-time work, don't also have to move out? What about people bootstrapping startups by living off savings from a previous job?

Yes, of course. People who recently lost jobs or were working for bootstrapped startups would get an exemption.

Doesn't NYC have the strictest renting laws? For example, you have to prove you make 52x the monthly rent to sign a lease. Obviously, sublets are a way around that income floor.

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#74

Post by tome »

jacoblyles wrote: post #47
billybob wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You don't have to agree with me! You're all individuals!" "I'm not!"

I know I'm the only member of my generation that believes this, but movie quotation is not a satisfactory substitute for wit.

"“Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.”

-- Oscar Wilde"

(ellyagg, 2010)

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#75

Post by angelbob »

Tichy wrote: post #69
yalurker wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly, it sounds like you've just had bad experiences in the past, or you live in a place that makes life harder. I live in the US, make an average salary for a software engineer, and live an incredibly comfortable life. I'm not going to retire at 30 or own a private yacht, but life isn't the dickensian struggle you present.

Sounds as if you are not 30 yet. Maybe your outlook will change when you get older. I don't know the conditions in the US, though. I suppose houses are cheap for one thing (by now).

Houses are decently cheap, rent is cheap in most places (not Silicon Valley). The US is overall not a terribly expensive place to live, if you don't want to be in Manhattan, Hollywood or Silicon Valley.

Being a decent software engineer, your raises can outpace inflation pretty handily though I'm pretty sure I'm not managing 10% annually over my career. My salary is 2.3 times what it was when I started, about 12 years ago. My calculator widget thinks that's about 7% annual increase and I'm now living much better than I did in 1998, despite living in a more expensive area.

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#76

Post by Tichy »

ido wrote: post #72
Tichy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not have to think much about expenses either. But did you plan to buy a house, or start a company? That is, have you tried to get significant savings on the side? Also, how old are you? I think when young, one doesn't really have a feeling for how much money one might need in the long run. Alone, I don't need more than maybe a 30m^2 flat. I don't crave any luxuries (except a fast computer+internet). Once family…

I'm 26, living alone in a 3 bedroom apartment, there is no need for a car in Vienna and higher education is free here ;) My burn rate is about 18k a year. When earning 35k Euros per year I managed to save a bit less than 1/3 of my nett salary (taxes + social & medical insurance added up to about 30% (not counting tax refunds I got at the end of the year), which I think is lower than I would have payed in Germany). I'…

I've never needed a car, either, but I suspect things might change with a kid, even when living in the city. Though I'd prefer to stay car free. Time will tell.

Higher education is mostly free in Germany, too, but students still need to live somewhere and eat.

Savings rate might go down with family, too.

As I said, I have lived OK so far, too. I just don't feel it is possible to get very far in terms of financial independence and security being employed.

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#77

Post by Tichy »

ido wrote: post #61
Tichy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose I need about 2000€ per month - my rent is 500€ and my health insurance is 700€ (unfortunately). Also there might be family to support. So to survive for a year, I would need 24K of savings. It takes several years to build that up with a normal salary. To pay for a house or flat, most people work 30 years where I live. And that is with 50K they pay in cash in the beginning - which I don't have, as I don't have…

Where the hell in the EU do you live that medical insurance cost 700 Euros a month?? I haven't payed medical insurance since starting to work (as the employers pay them here), but when I did the cost (for plain vanilla public medical insurance, which in Austria covers pretty much everything in my experience) was a bit over 20 Euros a month.

20€ sounds amazing. I envy you for living in Vienna. It's a very nice city, and apparently much more efficient than Germany :-/

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#78

Post by Gogome »

I'd wager that even people who flip burgers want autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Anyone with half a brain would want those things. Well any male at any rate. ;)

Smart people also like money to a certain degree, because the more money you get the shorter amount of time you have to be someone's bitch. So it's all 4.

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#79

Post by allyt »

_delirium wrote: post #59
andreyf wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my recent ploy to get you upvoted, I'll point out that some of the most brilliant programmers I know break the generalization in the article and follow this philosophy. They work as consultants making 5x the salary of their full-time counterparts, with precisely your mentality: I don't care if you respect me or honor me with social motivation or whatever. This is a business transaction, and I'll crank out amazing…

Well, we have dueling anecdotes, which makes it sound like it's time for a study. ;-) (Unfortunately from what I can tell, the studies on how different kinds of motivation [intrinsic, tangible extrinsic, social, etc.] relate are all over the map, and appear to depend sensitively on the specific kind of task and setting.)

I don't think you have dueling anecdotes, just observation of the existence of red weasels and blue weasels. Until someone starts claiming that most weasels are some color, or that certain colored weasels tend to occur in certain kinds of environments, there's no need to fund extensive studies ;)

Re: Top Motivators For Developers (Hint: not money)

#80

Post by cherring »

Isamu wrote: post #40

I have never asked for much, or pushed for raises. I was motivated by other things and figured hey, my managers are good guys, they'll do what's right. Turns out that when you discover you've been lower paid for years than some complaining bozo, it can be demoralizing. Or motivating - to get another job. Pay is another aspect of recognition.

How will people know what you want if you don't tell them?? Also I think a lot of companies won't pay up unless they feel they need to. Only a select few awesome companies seem to break this mold.
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