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Never accept a counter-offer

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Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#331

Post by softawre »

angelbob wrote: post #268
cookiecaper wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that it really works that way. At least in my experience, salaries are not generally set by an individual, but require multiple approvals. If they had a prepared counteroffer for $140k, it's not likely that he could've just gotten under the manager's skin and had it amped up to 160k without requiring the manager to go back through the approval process.

If they've prepared a counter at $140, there's a decent chance they're (quietly) allowed to haggle up to some larger number, say between $145 and $160 depending on how much they want you and how much they expect you to negotiate. They won't tell you what this higher number is under any normal circumstances, and may lie about it, but it probably exists.

Depends on the company of course. Big company, the exact number was probably pre-approved (that's how it happens here).

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#332

Post by charlesdm »

softawre wrote: post #331
angelbob wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they've prepared a counter at $140, there's a decent chance they're (quietly) allowed to haggle up to some larger number, say between $145 and $160 depending on how much they want you and how much they expect you to negotiate. They won't tell you what this higher number is under any normal circumstances, and may lie about it, but it probably exists.

Depends on the company of course. Big company, the exact number was probably pre-approved (that's how it happens here).

In a big company, the amount matters even less. 140k? 150k? 180k? Nobody cares, it's a number on a spreadsheet.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#333

Post by st3v3r »

robalfonso wrote: post #262
jimmywanger wrote: post #42

Counteroffers are poison for both the employee and the company. The employee now knows that he could have gotten the same thing the employer is now offering before the counteroffer. The employer knows that the employee is spending a non-trivial amount of time to interview and talk to other employers. I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that there should be. Exceptions aside (and you…

Some times office policies prohibit giving employees good raises and precipitate an environment where a counter offer is necessary to get a good pay bump. The act of the employee looking elsewhere usually removes those internal handcuffs. Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire business. This can also be wholly subjective to the company, culture, boss, and employee.

I fail to see how that's any better. Sure, the direct boss is no longer to blame, but the company as a whole still looks crappy.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#334

Post by st3v3r »

niccaluim wrote: post #24

Counter offers are a little silly. People in our industry are already making far above the median, which makes it extremely unlikely that money is the motivation behind resignation. More often it's a bad manager—there's a saying that people don't quit jobs; they quit bosses—uninteresting work, change in direction, or some other environmental factor. If you're going to make someone a counter-offer you should also be s…

"People in our industry are already making far above the median"

The median also includes lots of low/non skilled positions. I really don't care how I'm doing compared to that

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#335

Post by st3v3r »

wtracy wrote: post #210
nbb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in our industry are already making far above the median Well, half of them are.

The median income in the US (in 2014) was $29k. The median salary for a software engineer is supposedly $95k. That's more than triple the overall median. Sources: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-...

That median salary includes fast food workers and other low/non skilled positions. Comparing our profession against that is dishonest.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#336

Post by lukewink »

st3v3r wrote: post #309
JoshTriplett wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee. In many jurisdictions, this is illegal.

When has something being illegal stopped a company from doing something that could save and/or make it more money?

When the penalty of a lawsuit outweighs the money gained from such an action.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#337

Post by CydeWeys »

softawre wrote: post #330
CydeWeys wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a thirty minute chat with each potential manager during the hiring process, and I went with the one that I felt I had the best rapport with. It turns out that the initial impression was correct. Now of course this is far from foolproof, but oftentimes you can learn a lot about someone from just a thirty minute chat (and asking the right questions).

So...what do you think are the right questions?

It depends on what you value most in a working relationship. What I want in a boss isn't necessarily what you want in a boss. General questions that might apply to most people would include things like "What kind of working hours do people on your team keep", "How do you help build the careers of people on your team", "Why did you choose this project and what do you find exciting about it", "If you were to start this project all over again knowing what you know now, what decisions would you make differently", "How are relations between the tech side of the team and the business/product side of the team", "Why should I join your team in particular", "How well do the members of the team get along and what does a typical day look like -- do people sit together and chat frequently? Not interact in person much?". You see where I'm going with this.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#338

Post by infinite8s »

signa11 wrote: post #195
cookiecaper wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was unethical. In fact, finding out there is a salary disparity between peers is probably one of the most common ways that large salary raises occur. For that reason, and also because that disparity may result in legal liability if the peers have differing demographic profiles, some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee.

> ... some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee. after this, i was wondering if there is a way to get the average salary of a group without revealing / knowing actual numbers ? edit-001: ok, one thing that i can think of: 1. take a big number, and add your salary to it. this becomes the 'token' for the next guy. 2. he adds his salary to the number. etc. etc. once yo…

There is a cryptographic subfield called secure multiparty computation that lets you compute something like this (an average where nobody finds out the inputs of others) - https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/project...

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#339

Post by jimmywanger »

imagist wrote: post #295
jimmywanger wrote: post #42

Counteroffers are poison for both the employee and the company. The employee now knows that he could have gotten the same thing the employer is now offering before the counteroffer. The employer knows that the employee is spending a non-trivial amount of time to interview and talk to other employers. I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that there should be. Exceptions aside (and you…

> The employee now knows that he could have gotten the same thing the employer is now offering before the counteroffer. This only matters if the employee was under the delusion that the company had the employee's best interests in mind. This is true at very few companies. If your company speaks of itself as if it's "a family", it's likely that this is just an attempt to create employee loyalty that they can leverage…

> It would be extraordinarily difficult to prop up this delusion in the tech industry where staying at companies more than two years is unusual, so I can't imagine many employers care.

I dispute that. I generally stay at companies for 4 or 5 years, and I know multiple people who have stayed at Google for 10 years.

>If you agree there should be no trust here, why are you making an argument based on trust?

I'm not making an argument. I'm saying that trust (rightly or wrongly) sometimes seems like something that should be expected (to those who haven't been working for a while especially) and can be used to guilt people into acting in not their own best interests, or to act in a retaliatory way against employees.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#340

Post by FT_intern »

mikekchar wrote: post #219
FT_intern wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any opportunity to negotiate with the recruiter for a cut of the fees/commission as a signing bonus?

What are you bringing to the table that would entice a recruiter to do that? If you are such a hot commodity that it is worth the recruiter to give you part of their commission, then why do you need a recruiter at all? It will be easier to negotiate a signing bonus from your new employer if you don't go through a recruiter.

>What are you bringing to the table that would entice a recruiter to do that?

Because it would cost him more in time to find another candidate than to give you a cut. This is assuming you've passed the interviews.

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