Never accept a counter-offer • Hacker News Board

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#321

Post by st3v3r » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

otterley wrote: post #21

throwaway4job2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter counterpoint: I accepted a counter offer. Turns out my boss was literally lying about the counter offer. Raise never showed up in my paycheck despite my repeated bringing up the issue, and the repeated assurance it was just a payroll issue. The original job offer was no longer good, they'd hired someone else, so I spent another few months looking for a job. When I quit the second time around (boss had been fi…

Was the counteroffer on paper?

Honestly, it shouldn't matter. If the boss is making an offer like that, then it should be good as gold. If it's not, then that is not a place one would want to be working.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#322

Post by abandonliberty » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #68

archildress wrote: post #13

This couldn't have come at a better time, as I just navigated this last week. I kind of disagree with most of what the author is saying. Here's why. The author posits that you've begun looking for a new job for a reason. There are things that you dislike about your job. That's logical, and it's the number one reason that I went on a search of my own. The problem is that there's always some level of information asymme…

> And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was with the package that they put together. Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you, it sounds like an employer who got away with a great bargain while it lasted.

HR exists to obtain resources for as little as possible.

It's just business. Hate the game.

In a private capitalist environment, everything exists to maximize return in investment: morality, goodwill, company culture, values, information asymmetry.

Take the emotions out of it. Everything is quantifiable.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#323

Post by lliamander » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:24 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #257

lliamander wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the honest assessment; I had not previously been fully aware of the incentives on recruiters or the source of their statements. That said, early in my career as an employee, prior to reading any advice by recruiters, I made a decision to not accept counter-offers as a general rule. My main reasons are the ones people usually cite: a) if I am dissatisfied enough with my job that I applied for other jobs,…

I try to provide transparency into the recruiting business as I think it actually helps all parties. I mentioned possibly writing a book about the recruiting industry and got lots of support, so I still might do that. Recruiting as an industry usually benefits from the other parties having a lack of information, and I hope that starts to change. Most recruiters would rather have you believe the scary counteroffer "st…

> Recruiting as an industry usually benefits from the other parties having a lack of information, and I hope that starts to change.

Agreed. I appreciate your work in this regard.

> A counteroffer can "right a wrong" in some cases, and employees who are not sure how to ask for raises/promotions/changes to their employment situation may find that their resignation facilitates a conversation that maybe could have happened if they'd asked.

I was thinking about this very problem after my post, and while I don't have a better solution, I think I have a better understanding to the cause. Sometimes employers take for granted the increasing value provided by the employee (which, along with other factors, may be a sign of bad management) but even when the employee's value contribution is stable, their opportunity cost for keeping their current job goes up.

Either the employer is unaware of that increase in opportunity cost, or they are banking on the employee not being aware / being unwilling to leverage that opportunity cost. It's not enough that the employee be fully aware of their own opportunity costs, their employer has to know that they know (and the employee has to know that their employer knows, and so on. i.e. "common knowledge"). I see your point as being that the only way right now for that opportunity cost to become common knowledge is for an employee to field offers from other companies.

Trusted intermediaries or professional associations could probably help make the costs to all sides more transparent, and maybe they already do, but that's about as far as I know.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#324

Post by cbsmith » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:34 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

When I started working, most of the veterans I worked with offered the same advice about never accepting counters. I now offer that same advice to junior folks. I don't think you have to be a recruiter to recognize there is a problem.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#325

Post by cbsmith » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:36 PM UTC

kevan wrote: post #38

Clubber wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a counter once. When you're miserable at a place, for whatever reason, a big pay raise will make you forget it for about 4 months, then you'll be miserable again. Life is too short to be miserable 8+ hours a day.

I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.

Then you should just say, "hey, I'd like a raise, and I can prove I'm worth more to others". If you have to go as far as, "I am quitting!", you've got a problem.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#326

Post by fecak » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #302

byoung2 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She said that neither she nor anyone else at her recruiting firm would work with me ever again, which lasted about a year before they started emailing me job listings again. Be prepared if you accept a counteroffer after working with a recruiter, they will definitely hold it against you (that fee is 20% of your first year salary or more), plus it makes them look bad to the company they're working for.

> She said that neither she nor anyone else at her recruiting firm would work with me ever again If she actually thought that was tantamount to "you'll never work in this town again", she needs a reality check. Oh, this one recruiter firm won't work with me, whatever will I do? I've worked at four different companies. In order, I got those jobs through Craigslist (2007), Monster (2012), Indeed (2014), and a friend re…

If one recruiting firm won't represent you as a candidate, it's no loss, as there are thousands more that will - and recruiting firms aren't comparing notes with other firms on who took a counteroffer.

It's a threat that is totally unrealistic.

As a recruiter, I'd actually say that technologists are more likely to be able to damage a recruiter's career than the other way around. If word gets out about a recruiter not behaving properly, that word can travel much faster in the worker space than word travels in the recruiter space.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#327

Post by maverick_iceman » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #20

throwaway4job wrote: post #7

Counterpoint, I accepted a counter offer two years ago. Since then, I have been promoted twice. I am now one of the highest-paid, and highest ranked individuals in my organization. Additionally, I have been given many opportunities specifically designed to help me grow my career in the direction that I preferred. This has included everything from project assignment, to introductions to board members and VCs, to educa…

You got really lucky. Normally when a company extends a counter offer what they're doing is buying time to ease you out on their terms.

If you spend even a little time in Silicon Valley you would know how rare qualified people are and giving them a raise is such an insignificant proportion of the value lost if they quit. I'm not even talking about the money and time spent in bringing their replacement up to speed.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#328

Post by stuxnet79 » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

evo_9 wrote: post #312

I accepted a counteroffer once and it ended up being a huge mistake. The company was struggling and they felt they couldn't lose me etc, it was near the end of the year and everyone was already upset because it was announced that we wouldn't receive end of year/xmas bonus'. After I accepted the counter-offer I was at a lunch xmas party for our team (around 15 of us) and one person said to 'thank god this isn't a goin…

Bummer, what a terrible outcome. This is why I always mind my business and abide by the 'your co-workers are not your friends' dictum.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#329

Post by VikingCoder » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

byoung2 wrote: post #36

fecak wrote: post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

I worked somewhere for four years with no raises.

I turned in my resignation, and my boss offered to double my salary on the spot.

No. Thanks. I'll work somewhere that doesn't need me to RESIGN to be willing to pay me what I'm worth.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#330

Post by softawre » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #283

quantumhobbit wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you identify a good manager? I ask because I've had both good and bad but no indication of which is which at the beginning. Some seemed super engaged when interviewing but disappeared once I started working.

I had a thirty minute chat with each potential manager during the hiring process, and I went with the one that I felt I had the best rapport with. It turns out that the initial impression was correct. Now of course this is far from foolproof, but oftentimes you can learn a lot about someone from just a thirty minute chat (and asking the right questions).

So...what do you think are the right questions?