Live data from Hacker News

Never accept a counter-offer

vtorosyan.github.io

221–230 of 369 posts

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#221
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is only in it for the money, it can be a shock. You know what really would be a shocker to me? A company that isn't in it for the money or a company that isn't trying hard to have employees that are highly productive.

Eh, you could make the argument that the company makes more money in the long run by keeping the most productive employees with the most institutional knowledge around long-term, which requires really paying attention to what they want before they start looking elsewhere, keeping up with what market rates are and giving raises and bonuses appropriately, etc. As a rational business owner, would you rather pay out an e…

When it comes to business owners, rationality is overrated. I've seen a lot of companies that are perfectly happy hiring a less competent dev that accepts 20% less, and takes more than twice the time to do the work.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#222

Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now. The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average t…

I mean no insult by this: were you possibly paid more at your previous employer than the market thinks you're worth?

There can be huge variations in the market.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#223

Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now. The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average t…

I believe wrt to this article, the counter offer they are talking about is a counter offer from your current employer, not a counter offer from an interview.

But from someone who has done his fair share of hiring, I'll tell you that I almost never entertain someone who asks for a lot more than I'm willing to pay. The reason is that you are very likely to be unhappy with your salary. No matter what your performance is like, you are probably going to be asking for a top up soon -- probably with extra to make up for the perceived deficiency when starting. No matter what deal we strike, this is going to be a point of contention going forward.

And while it might be uncouth to talk about it in these circles, if you are unhappy then you're going to complain to everybody around you about how little you get paid. If you are experienced and talented and worth a good salary, then you are likely already going to be paid a fair bit more than the average person on the team. So the result is that I've got an unhappy guy wandering the halls complaining about how ridiculously small his salary is, when it is already one of the highest on the team.

And then, when someone else on the team comes in and says, "alex-yo is getting X more than me and I'm way better than him/her", I have the distinctly difficult conversation where I have to tell them, "No. alex-yo gets paid a lot more than you because he/she is more experienced and has more skills than you. Let me enumerate all of the situations where alex-yo is performing better than you." And then that person, despite potentially being educated about where they can improve, is likely pissed of at me. So then they'll go to you and say, "Geeze, I'm only making Y. I should be getting paid at least as much as you." And you will be going, "....." because you know as well as I do that this person is only doing half of what you do.

At which point I have a bunch of guys pissed off at their salary, pissed off with me and pissed off with each other. Seriously, it's not worth it. So no, I'm not going counter your very high expectations with a low-ball offer. There are other candidates whose expectations are in line with mine. And even if you are worth the money, it won't be worth it for my team.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't always be showcasing top performers like alex-yo and encouraging the team to adopt similarly successful behaviours. And it's not that we should not be rewarding people who succeed in getting to the next level. But I'm not about to start hitting hornet nests with sticks for no good reason.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#224
post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

Wow. The source the author cites for his counteroffer statistic ( http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not... ) includes this passage: > Back to my candidate. Two days after he took the counter-offer, I received a call from one of his colleagues. She said word on the street was that one of her co-workers had recently accepted a counter-offer with her employer, and she wanted me to know she would n…

> Can you imagine an actual human being calling up a recruiter completely unprompted to inform them that counteroffer-accepters are weak-minded jerks and no one likes them?

Yes, it is called 'jealousy'.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#226
post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

I got the same a number of years ago when I went through a difficult recruitment process to get a job, and got the offer and in the end turned it down because after extended consideration that it just wasn't the right job for me even though it was a good job with a significant pay increase. It was using technologies I didn't specially want to work on, for a company that didn't really interest me, and who hadn't persuaded me that they were doing anything I'd be interested in. Nothing wrong with the job, or the offer, it just wasn't the right place for me.

I recruiter was not happy and basically told me that I wouldn't get anything else, and if I got a reputation for turning down jobs I couldn't expect agencies to ever put me forward for anything else. They just screamed at me on the phone.

I did get another job and it was far better (for me) than the one I turned down.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#227
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you quit to freelance?

Why did you quit to freelance? I have a daughter (turning 4 this month) and I wanted to work from home and have a more flexible schedule. I applied for a few companies that offered remote work, but the schedules weren't that flexible (they all seemed to have core hours, except WordPress, which was a top contender). I also love to travel...my wife and I average 6 weeks of vacation and a dozen or more countries per yea…

>She is a registered nurse, so she can easily get a month off at a time

Tangential, but...a friend of mine is an RN in an ICU who works nights (how he copes with the long hours is beyond me). He's struggled to get a single week off, much less an entire month without quarrel. Turnover is high, they're shortstaffed, etc. What is different about your wife's hospital (maybe there's less pressure and more nurses available in other sections of a hospital)?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#228
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

I worked at a savings and loan back during the 1988/1989 crisis that took them out and we were no different. Hired as a 'C' programmer I was quickly turned into a Sybase DBA, sys-admin and anything else I could handle. In fact I ended up writing an in-house payroll system so like you I had inside information. When the sys-admin left I asked for a raise since I was doing his job and my own. They made some excuses abou…

I had a similar experience. I was brought on as a junior fresh out of university and quickly made a name for myself in the company, I wasn't the top developer by any means, but after a few years and a couple of pay rises, the £32k/year they were paying me (in central London) was definitely much lower than what I should have been getting.

One of my colleagues had the year before, and had recently got funding for his startup. He offered myself and another developer a job, so we went to tell our boss together who obviously wasn't too pleased. He then spoke to us separately about negotiations, and he offered me £55k/year. The look on his face when I said "Sorry, but they are offering me much more than that" was priceless.

A few years later (after all the team I'd worked with had left) I went back to what was left of the company as a contractor for a few months. I was earning more per week, than I was per month, when I first started.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your personal time is worth more than any number of $$$. You can't buy back your time after you've traded it for cash. Make sure you enjoy life while you have it. Edit: My point is that freelance work income may not compare, but the income may not be the reason for moving to freelance. The op did not explain why he moved to freelance, but I can think of some great reasons to do so.

As a senior engineer at a big corp, I feel like I have lot more free time available to me than if I were a freelancer. I don't have to worry about business details, contracts, hell, really even deadlines. In order to contract out for a comparable amount of money I think I'd have to spend a lot more time and deal with a lot more stress. Plus, you don't get paid vacation as a freelancer, whereas I get as much paid vaca…

vacations, one of the worst parts of freelancing - it's not the price of it (usually flight tickets + some cash on the spot, all manageable), but the income lost while having fun that hurts bad. combine it with some mortgage, and self-pressure to just work leaves you missing some nice experiences in life (while having some extra cash too)

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#230
post #211
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question for any consultants who work 100% remotely: how do you compete with workers in countries with extremely low costs of living?

I work remotely. It's very simple - you position yourself and your skillset in such a way that you cannot be commoditized. There are two essential skills required to manage your own freelancing or consulting practice. The first is the core competency for which you bill (software development, sales conversions, security auditing, etc.). The second is the ability to inspire confidence in your clients that you are capab…

High five!
Post reply on HN