Never accept a counter-offer • Hacker News Board

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#211

Post by dsacco » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 5:03 AM UTC

wtracy wrote: post #206

DominikR wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not want to give away too much personal information but I mostly work remotely. (I meet with my clients once every 2 months or so) The only exceptions are heavily regulated corporations like banks that require everyone to work from within their office for security reasons. (to prevent information leaks)

A question for any consultants who work 100% remotely: how do you compete with workers in countries with extremely low costs of living?

I work remotely. It's very simple - you position yourself and your skillset in such a way that you cannot be commoditized.

There are two essential skills required to manage your own freelancing or consulting practice. The first is the core competency for which you bill (software development, sales conversions, security auditing, etc.). The second is the ability to inspire confidence in your clients that you are capable of using that competency to solve a business problem. Perception matters a great deal in business relationships and framing yourself as an equal who will leverage a unique mix of skills to contribute value is very important.

'patio11 has spoken about this a lot, and his writings helped me get to ~$300k per year as a consultant.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#212

Post by dboreham » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 5:04 AM UTC

wtracy wrote: post #206

DominikR wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not want to give away too much personal information but I mostly work remotely. (I meet with my clients once every 2 months or so) The only exceptions are heavily regulated corporations like banks that require everyone to work from within their office for security reasons. (to prevent information leaks)

A question for any consultants who work 100% remotely: how do you compete with workers in countries with extremely low costs of living?

To be honest I've never been in a situation where there was any such competition. I'm sure it happens on the margins but when you factor in time zone inconvenience, language and cultural barriers it isn't so easy to commoditize consulting. Also good people from anywhere in the world tend to migrate to a few places where this work is done. They don't always stay hanging out somewhere cheap. And good people aren't cheap even if they live in a low cost location. The market price for such people is driven by demanding vs supply rather than the cost of their apartment.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#213

Post by wyclif » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 5:27 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #107

fecak wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to differentiate what type of counter it is and whether or not it solves the problem reasonably. A counter can be a pay raise, new role/promotion, or even something like letting someone telecommute. Those are all very different scenarios, and the stereotypical "walks into managers office with shiny offer from competitor demanding more" may have less positive long-term results than the more comm…

I once accepted a counter that included a pay raise, a substantial equity grant, and had my requirements for role adjustments mostly met --- all offered entirely to prevent me from moving to a new job. I shouldn't have! Things were O.K. for about six months, and only then did it clear that I'd been sidelined --- after the company had put in motion its plans for post-me continuity. Basically: they bought themselves ti…

Flight risks get managed differently

Assuming a large percentage of software developers leave for new gigs every 2-3 years, even in the best companies [that is an assumption on my part; I don't know if it's true or only anecdotal], why do you think the overhead for "flight risk" is so high? I mean, getting tagged as someone heading out the door is a temporary situation for most devs, not a long-term debilitation.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#214

Post by signa11 » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:04 AM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #204

signa11 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee. after this, i was wondering if there is a way to get the average salary of a group without revealing / knowing actual numbers ? edit-001: ok, one thing that i can think of: 1. take a big number, and add your salary to it. this becomes the 'token' for the next guy. 2. he adds his salary to the number. etc. etc. once yo…

What threat model are you defending against? Because the people at positions N and N+2 in your scheme can collude to determine the salary of the person at position N+1 without even having to reveal their own salaries in the process...

> What threat model are you defending against?

umm, not really trying to prevent from folks actively sabotage the whole thing, but just seeing if it actually works i.e gives the correct average salary...

but yes, as you have pointed out, people at N and N+2 can collude to get the original salary (for N+1).

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#215

Post by JoshTriplett » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:13 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #177

byoung2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on many levels...the coworker was an idiot and a project manager, not an engineer, but had an MBA, which likely appealed to the founders, who were both "business guys". Also, it was silly to have sensitive info on a shared drive where anyone could see it. It was probably less than ethical for me to use that info in negotiations, but it couldn't be unseen.

I don't think it was unethical. In fact, finding out there is a salary disparity between peers is probably one of the most common ways that large salary raises occur. For that reason, and also because that disparity may result in legal liability if the peers have differing demographic profiles, some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee.

> some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee.

In many jurisdictions, this is illegal.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#216

Post by niccaluim » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:17 AM UTC

chrisbennet wrote: post #115

niccaluim wrote: post #24

Counter offers are a little silly. People in our industry are already making far above the median, which makes it extremely unlikely that money is the motivation behind resignation. More often it's a bad manager—there's a saying that people don't quit jobs; they quit bosses—uninteresting work, change in direction, or some other environmental factor. If you're going to make someone a counter-offer you should also be s…

Uh, no. We in the industry make a lot of value and as such, we should have no compulsion about trying to capture as much of that value as possible. This is a business relationship. I'm not going to be satisfied earning less than my market value just so another party can make a larger profit.

Yes, by all means, ask for what you're worth. My point is that money is almost never the reason people decide to start looking for work elsewhere. A counter offer by itself is sort of an empty gesture that is bound to be ineffective in the long run as a retention tool.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#217

Post by lliamander » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:20 AM UTC

fecak wrote: post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

Thank you for the honest assessment; I had not previously been fully aware of the incentives on recruiters or the source of their statements.

That said, early in my career as an employee, prior to reading any advice by recruiters, I made a decision to not accept counter-offers as a general rule. My main reasons are the ones people usually cite: a) if I am dissatisfied enough with my job that I applied for other jobs, it is almost certainly not (just) about the money, and b) my relationship with both employers becoming strained.

So far it has worked out for me, and I don't plan on changing that, but I'll be sure to keep this in mind in the future.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#218

Post by alex-yo » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:48 AM UTC

Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now.

The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average that we pay".

And I wanted just about the same money I was earning in my previous job.

From my perspective the job hunt is a one shot thing. I give some figure, they stop being interested. No negotiation, no counter-offer, no other things.

So it seems like the market is not that good for programmers, or I'm just so unlucky.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#219

Post by mikekchar » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC

FT_intern wrote: post #131

fecak wrote: post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

Is there any opportunity to negotiate with the recruiter for a cut of the fees/commission as a signing bonus?

What are you bringing to the table that would entice a recruiter to do that? If you are such a hot commodity that it is worth the recruiter to give you part of their commission, then why do you need a recruiter at all? It will be easier to negotiate a signing bonus from your new employer if you don't go through a recruiter.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#220

Post by Waterluvian » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 6:58 AM UTC

alex-yo wrote: post #218

Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now. The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average t…

I mean no insult by this: were you possibly paid more at your previous employer than the market thinks you're worth?