Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again • Hacker News Board

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#41

Post by nollidge » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:29 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #33

wdewind wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shaman/Medicine men have been having visions for years and using substances to get closer to nature since humankind started - agree with your point about "rediscovery"." So have completely insane people. If only we had some way to tell when people were full of shit...oh wait, thanks science!

In the case of most pharmaceuticals, the best science can tell us is that this chemical correlates with that effect. We still don't know how aspirin does what it does for chrissake -- just that it does it. The only difference between that and a shaman is clinical trials. (Except, of course, that the shaman actually has an explanation for how his medicine works, however anathema it may be to the traditional Western mi…

> We still don't know how aspirin does what it does for chrissake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_of_action_of_aspirin

> The only difference between that and a shaman is clinical trials.

Yeah, man, totally. Well, that and safe dosage, drug interactions, toxicity profile, half-life, chemical formula, side-effects...

> Except, of course, that the shaman actually has an explanation for how his medicine works

This merely proves that anyone anywhere can invent a just-so story.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#42

Post by nollidge » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:36 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #32

MichaelGG wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shamans also use things like ayahuasca, which is a MAOI and thus can have lethal interactions with other things. That might be somewhat related to the whole need for "legitimate" study.

The shamans who lead ayahuasca ceremonies are usually rather strict about who they'll let participate -- particularly if they're dealing with people from the first world, and the panoply of chemicals we put in our bodies. When I went to Peru to drink aya, we were specifically disallowed to take any Western medicines, except an anti-malarial, without consulting the shaman first (and had to discontinue use of them week…

Caveat emptor, indeed. If only there were some sort of rational method of inquiry involving painstaking scrutiny and freely published libraries of results were available to help consumers decide.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#43

Post by Psyonic » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:39 PM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #36

lolcraft wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol can kill you. Psilocybin can't, but it is at least possible that it can lead to mental illness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis "Alcohol is also a common risk of causing psychotic disorders or episodes. Research has shown that alcohol abuse causes an 8-fold increase in psychotic disorders in men and a 3 fold increased risk of psychotic disorders in women. Alcoholic psychosis is sometimes misdiagnosed a…

I'm not advocating banning anything.

I believe his point was that the research is more conclusive that alcohol leads to psychosis than hallucinogens.

And people (in general) aren't all that great at controlling alcohol dosages. If it wasn't for the bodies natural reaction (becoming incapacitated), people would die all the time. How many times have you seen people vomiting (in the bathroom, if we're lucky) or passed out due to drinking too much?

If you mean dosage per drink, I'd again they say that falls out naturally based on the amount of alcohol people can handle to taste, rather than proof of rational control.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#44

Post by Psyonic » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:46 PM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #38

danieldon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't know what the probability of having a psychotic break on shrooms is. I bet it's low, but it seems to happen" That's the point. Although the relationship between psilocybin and psychosis is unclear, it's already very well established that alcohol aggravates mental disorders and causes psychosis. On top of that, all available evidence suggests that psilocybin is very physically safe, while all available eviden…

On top of that, all available evidence suggests that psilocybin is very physically safe, while all available evidence suggests that alcohol is very physically unsafe. This is interesting. What about the danger of bad trips? For example, I know that if I drink 2 beers, I'll get a buzz and as long as I don't drive, I'm safe. I don't know that with regard to shrooms. I've never had a bad trip on those, but I've had terr…

I'd feel pretty confident saying that a low dosage isn't going to cause a bad trip capable of long-term damage. At high-dosages, sure, there's some danger there, although even then, there is a huge difference between a bad trip and an unenjoyable trip. Sometimes the most important trips long-term are those that were uncomfortable at the time (facing unpleasant truths).

Also, going back to alcohol, with 2 beers, I'll give you that the risk is low. But as that goes up, not only does the potential damage from the alcohol go up, but also your behavior. Increased aggression, etc. I know a guy who broke his hand because he punched a wall while drunk, etc.

Also... do you know any true alcoholics? I mean the real dysfunctional kind? They are worse than any e-head I know. Waiting outside the liquor store at 11 am til it opens, drinking the entire bottle the moment they leave, etc... They are right up there with the worst of drug addicts. I've never even heard of that happening from mushrooms.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#45

Post by Psyonic » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:48 PM UTC

moted wrote: post #34

pw0ncakes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Escapism and experience chasing. The experiences become a lot less profound for the frequent users, and they themselves also become a lot more messed up. The truth is that if you have a psychedelic experience every Friday night, it's not nearly as interesting. With spiritual practice, you gain a sort of humility and perspective along the way. It's not only about experiences, but also community and morality. For peopl…

Among the tight knit group of friends that I had the majority of my psychedelic experiences with, we dubbed that 4 hour period after the peak as "Cranky Religion." It's when you've reached a point where you feel enlightened but too tired to give a damn. You mostly sit around and relate to one another how messed up society is. Given how personal and intense my experiences were for both how I relate to myself and the w…

"Man, I have so much to tell you guys, but I'm just too tired..." ;)

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#46

Post by Alex3917 » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:57 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #37

Alex3917 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"These guys aren't the first to do these sorts of experiments." Actually they are the first to do most of them. Back in the 60s they used to use LSD, which they no longer use because it's too long lasting and also because of its bad reputation. We also now have an empirically derived mysticism scale which wasn't available in the 60s, as well as a bunch of new methodologies that are much tighter than what they were us…

"empirically derived mysticism scale" I want to hear more about this.

I'm not an expert on this, but here is a link to one of the studies:

http://csp.org/experience/docs/hood_dimensions.html

If you went and searched Google Scholar or JSTOR I'm sure you could find the rest of the papers based on that. I'm pretty sure that Roland Griffiths also mentions it here:

http://premium.gnosticmedia.podomatic.com/entry/2009-01-11T2...

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#47

Post by rosser » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 11:03 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #41

rosser wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of most pharmaceuticals, the best science can tell us is that this chemical correlates with that effect. We still don't know how aspirin does what it does for chrissake -- just that it does it. The only difference between that and a shaman is clinical trials. (Except, of course, that the shaman actually has an explanation for how his medicine works, however anathema it may be to the traditional Western mi…

> We still don't know how aspirin does what it does for chrissake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_of_action_of_aspirin > The only difference between that and a shaman is clinical trials. Yeah, man, totally. Well, that and safe dosage, drug interactions, toxicity profile, half-life, chemical formula, side-effects... > Except, of course, that the shaman actually has an explanation for how his medicine works This…

re: the MoA of aspirin, I stand corrected; thank you.

Yeah, man, totally. Well, that and safe dosage, drug interactions...

I only have direct experience with ayahuasca shamanism, but for that case, they do have most of those things, as well as demonstrable, and reproducible, curative effects, and have reportedly had them for thousands of years. (Obviously, that last isn't a claim I can very well verify.)

...anyone anywhere can invent a just-so story.

Just so, and I didn't mean to imply that I personally believe the shamans' version of how their medicine works. Regardless of their beliefs, mine, or anyone else's, however, it does; there's no way people would continue to come back, over millennia, to what can be one of the most harrowing experiences I can conceive, if it didn't.

Moreover, there are documented studies, done by genuine lab-coat-wearing scientist types, with measured doses and control groups and everything, that detail its effects, and its unambiguous efficacy. It's only the prevailing sentiment towards psychedelic compounds, and the restrictions on their study that engenders, that have prevented the kind of exploration I think we'd both like to see -- which is the point TFA was making in the first place.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#48

Post by wdewind » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 11:51 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #47

nollidge wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We still don't know how aspirin does what it does for chrissake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_of_action_of_aspirin > The only difference between that and a shaman is clinical trials. Yeah, man, totally. Well, that and safe dosage, drug interactions, toxicity profile, half-life, chemical formula, side-effects... > Except, of course, that the shaman actually has an explanation for how his medicine works This…

re: the MoA of aspirin, I stand corrected; thank you. Yeah, man, totally. Well, that and safe dosage, drug interactions... I only have direct experience with ayahuasca shamanism, but for that case, they do have most of those things, as well as demonstrable, and reproducible, curative effects, and have reportedly had them for thousands of years. (Obviously, that last isn't a claim I can very well verify.) ...anyone an…

'1) Just so, and I didn't mean to imply that I personally believe the shamans' version of how their medicine works. Regardless of their beliefs, mine, or anyone else's, however, it does; there's no way people would continue to come back, over millennia, to what can be one of the most harrowing experiences I can conceive, if it didn't.

2) Moreover, there are documented studies, done by genuine lab-coat-wearing scientist types, with measured doses and control groups and everything, that detail its effects, and its unambiguous efficacy. It's only the prevailing sentiment towards psychedelic compounds, and the restrictions on their study that engenders, that have prevented the kind of exploration I think we'd both like to see -- which is the point TFA was making in the first place.'

1) You're talking about a very small number of people, relatively speaking, over a very long period of time, compounded with a lot of mostly second hand, passed down knowledge that has absolutely no recorded data, ie: at best a ton of correlation without causation (correct me if I'm wrong). Humans have been wrong many times before like this, and for just as long, under similar circumstances.

2) You're talking about something very specific, reproducible, and testable. I don't mean to be culturally insensitive, but there is a very real and demonstrably greater value to this kind of information.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#49

Post by techiferous » Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 1:42 AM UTC

roc wrote: post #30

pw0ncakes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of motivations behind the anti-drug movement, many of which are ignoble, but I think genuine concern is one of them. Most people don't want their children using them, and the drugs are dangerous, at least when used recklessly as they often are. Also, most people don't make the distinction between "hedonistic" drug use, such as using cocaine, and exploratory/psychedelic drug use, which is a different l…

And yet we daily send our children off into the world in, amongst and behind the wheel of automobiles, when cars have a far, far higher incidence of causing property damage, permanent debilitation and fatality. The risks of drugs are certainly real and some concern is absolutely genuine. But the dangers of drugs are treated completely out-of-context with any number of other aspects of modern life. Secondary objection…

"when cars have a far, far higher incidence of causing property damage, permanent debilitation and fatality."

But we are used to cars. Cars are "normal" (and therefore just fine). The more I observe human nature, the more I see that most people make decisions using "normal" as a reference point.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#50

Post by anatta » Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 1:54 AM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #16

pmichaud wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA might save your life (or marriage) if you find a person who can teach you how to take it (attendant... guide... whatever).

I could be wrong, and I stopped using recreational drugs altogether after developing panic disorder in 2008-- I don't know if there's a connection between my past drug use and the disorder, but I thought the first attacks were bad salvia "flashbacks" or possibly God punishing me for being reckless-- but I think that everything beneficial that can be achieved with psychoactive drugs can be achieved, in time, with medi…

Your analogy of meditation being like riding into the woods is great. Its only flaw, however, is in the assertion that both meditation and psychedelic experience arrive at the same mental state. Minus that, likening meditation to progressive, incremental bicycle trips into the forest is accurate and sets a person up wonderfully to begin the discipline.

Psychedelic drugs provide an experience of absorption like a trance. When one is absorbed in such a state, it's the first direct experience of a sense of self that is immaterial (but finite). Buddhist meditation (samadhi or "right concentration" in the Noble Eightfold Path) goes very far beyond that and into very different states of consciousness.

Gil Fronsdal is a Stanford Ph.D who teaches clearly, logically, and in stepwise progression. You can learn here:

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-intromed.html

If you're interested in empirical studies of samadhi, Dr. James Austin published a book called "Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness" from MIT press.

I hope this helps alleviate your panic and brings you clarity and harmony of mind.