Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again • Hacker News Board

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#31

Post by lolcraft » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 7:53 PM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #27

danieldon wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"could even be argued that alcohol is more dangerous than psilocybin" That anyone even entertains the notion that alcohol isn't significantly more dangerous than psilocybin demonstrates how extremely misguided the public is about the subject. "but have also wrecked a lot of people ... becoming an acid-head is a terrible idea ... are exhaustingly boring people." It's also interesting that many people can't help but vi…

That anyone even entertains the notion that alcohol isn't significantly more dangerous than psilocybin demonstrates how extremely miguided the public is about the subject. I could be wrong, but as I understand it, they're different categories of danger altogether. Alcohol can kill you. Psilocybin can't, but it is at least possible that it can lead to mental illness. Although the probability of psilocybin leading to l…

Alcohol can kill you. Psilocybin can't, but it is at least possible that it can lead to mental illness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

"Alcohol is also a common risk of causing psychotic disorders or episodes. Research has shown that alcohol abuse causes an 8-fold increase in psychotic disorders in men and a 3 fold increased risk of psychotic disorders in women. Alcoholic psychosis is sometimes misdiagnosed as a mental illness such as schizophrenia."

The people I'm talking about are the party types who are using these drugs all the time, to the point that drugs are the only things in their lives.

That doesn't seem a very strong argument. I would argue that everything is subject to psychological addiction. Gambling, World of Warcraft, the Internet, sex... it's physical addiction what should be controlled. I could see the point on banning, say, crack. Or alcohol. Or tobacco. But hallucinogens?

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#32

Post by rosser » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:05 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #24

NEPatriot wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a piece of paper (degree) from an educational institution to make these claims. Otherwise you get arrested/have serious problems. Shaman/Medicine men have been having visions for years and using substances to get closer to nature since humankind started - agree with your point about "rediscovery".

Shamans also use things like ayahuasca, which is a MAOI and thus can have lethal interactions with other things. That might be somewhat related to the whole need for "legitimate" study.

The shamans who lead ayahuasca ceremonies are usually rather strict about who they'll let participate -- particularly if they're dealing with people from the first world, and the panoply of chemicals we put in our bodies. When I went to Peru to drink aya, we were specifically disallowed to take any Western medicines, except an anti-malarial, without consulting the shaman first (and had to discontinue use of them weeks before going down there), leaving completely aside the strict dietary and other restrictions during and for some time after the trip.

They've been doing this for thousands of years; I'm pretty sure they have far a better idea of the risks than your comment seems to me to intimate. (Assuming, of course, that they aren't just brujos, there primarily to take the gringo's money. That's not a problem with the medicine as much as it is with the practitioner, however. Even then, they likely know the risks very well; they simply ignore them. As with everything else, the doctrine of caveat emptor applies.)

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#33

Post by rosser » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:11 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #23

NEPatriot wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a piece of paper (degree) from an educational institution to make these claims. Otherwise you get arrested/have serious problems. Shaman/Medicine men have been having visions for years and using substances to get closer to nature since humankind started - agree with your point about "rediscovery".

"Shaman/Medicine men have been having visions for years and using substances to get closer to nature since humankind started - agree with your point about "rediscovery"." So have completely insane people. If only we had some way to tell when people were full of shit...oh wait, thanks science!

In the case of most pharmaceuticals, the best science can tell us is that this chemical correlates with that effect. We still don't know how aspirin does what it does for chrissake -- just that it does it. The only difference between that and a shaman is clinical trials. (Except, of course, that the shaman actually has an explanation for how his medicine works, however anathema it may be to the traditional Western mindset.)

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#34

Post by moted » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:19 PM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #22

omarchowdhury wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a psychedelic is always a taxing and challenging experience, I don't know why anyone would want to do it frequently.

Escapism and experience chasing. The experiences become a lot less profound for the frequent users, and they themselves also become a lot more messed up. The truth is that if you have a psychedelic experience every Friday night, it's not nearly as interesting. With spiritual practice, you gain a sort of humility and perspective along the way. It's not only about experiences, but also community and morality. For peopl…

Among the tight knit group of friends that I had the majority of my psychedelic experiences with, we dubbed that 4 hour period after the peak as "Cranky Religion." It's when you've reached a point where you feel enlightened but too tired to give a damn. You mostly sit around and relate to one another how messed up society is.

Given how personal and intense my experiences were for both how I relate to myself and the world, but also with my relationship with my best friends, I can't imagine really doing LSD or Mushrooms in a rave/party like environment.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#35

Post by zackattack » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:22 PM UTC

euroclydon wrote: post #15

[deleted] wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

How do psychedelics get people thinking for themselves? I've been in and around that culture, and I still wanted to go work at some crappy job so I could be a consumer. I've found that a having clear mind is a much more conducive to uncovering the matrix than being high is.

For me the process was:

1. Take hallucinogens

2. Realize things are really, really fucked up

3. Change

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#36

Post by pw0ncakes » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:33 PM UTC

lolcraft wrote: post #31

pw0ncakes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That anyone even entertains the notion that alcohol isn't significantly more dangerous than psilocybin demonstrates how extremely miguided the public is about the subject. I could be wrong, but as I understand it, they're different categories of danger altogether. Alcohol can kill you. Psilocybin can't, but it is at least possible that it can lead to mental illness. Although the probability of psilocybin leading to l…

Alcohol can kill you. Psilocybin can't, but it is at least possible that it can lead to mental illness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis "Alcohol is also a common risk of causing psychotic disorders or episodes. Research has shown that alcohol abuse causes an 8-fold increase in psychotic disorders in men and a 3 fold increased risk of psychotic disorders in women. Alcoholic psychosis is sometimes misdiagnosed a…

I'm not advocating banning anything.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#37

Post by philwelch » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:35 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #17

bluedanieru wrote: post #3

It's really irritating when scientists "rediscover" what people have known for years. Yes of course psilocybin can give people intense, potentially life-changing experiences. Did you think we were making all that shit up? And it's not even that there is now empirical evidence to make it "true." These guys aren't the first to do these sorts of experiments.

"These guys aren't the first to do these sorts of experiments." Actually they are the first to do most of them. Back in the 60s they used to use LSD, which they no longer use because it's too long lasting and also because of its bad reputation. We also now have an empirically derived mysticism scale which wasn't available in the 60s, as well as a bunch of new methodologies that are much tighter than what they were us…

"empirically derived mysticism scale"

I want to hear more about this.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#38

Post by pw0ncakes » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:38 PM UTC

danieldon wrote: post #29

pw0ncakes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That anyone even entertains the notion that alcohol isn't significantly more dangerous than psilocybin demonstrates how extremely miguided the public is about the subject. I could be wrong, but as I understand it, they're different categories of danger altogether. Alcohol can kill you. Psilocybin can't, but it is at least possible that it can lead to mental illness. Although the probability of psilocybin leading to l…

"I don't know what the probability of having a psychotic break on shrooms is. I bet it's low, but it seems to happen" That's the point. Although the relationship between psilocybin and psychosis is unclear, it's already very well established that alcohol aggravates mental disorders and causes psychosis. On top of that, all available evidence suggests that psilocybin is very physically safe, while all available eviden…

On top of that, all available evidence suggests that psilocybin is very physically safe, while all available evidence suggests that alcohol is very physically unsafe.

This is interesting. What about the danger of bad trips? For example, I know that if I drink 2 beers, I'll get a buzz and as long as I don't drive, I'm safe. I don't know that with regard to shrooms. I've never had a bad trip on those, but I've had terrifying salvia trips, and I have a problem with panic attacks, so I don't have that assurance and would tend to avoid using them.

Do you believe that psilocybin would be relatively safe if used under proper circumstances? I'd love for that to be true.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#39

Post by pw0ncakes » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 8:46 PM UTC

roc wrote: post #30

pw0ncakes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of motivations behind the anti-drug movement, many of which are ignoble, but I think genuine concern is one of them. Most people don't want their children using them, and the drugs are dangerous, at least when used recklessly as they often are. Also, most people don't make the distinction between "hedonistic" drug use, such as using cocaine, and exploratory/psychedelic drug use, which is a different l…

And yet we daily send our children off into the world in, amongst and behind the wheel of automobiles, when cars have a far, far higher incidence of causing property damage, permanent debilitation and fatality. The risks of drugs are certainly real and some concern is absolutely genuine. But the dangers of drugs are treated completely out-of-context with any number of other aspects of modern life. Secondary objection…

But the dangers of drugs are treated completely out-of-context with any number of other aspects of modern life.

I agree, especially in comparison to the overprescription of stimulants to children and students.

I don't think it's ever been convincingly shown that criminalization decreases drug use. Last I'd read, the opposite seems to have been occurring in areas that have legalized drugs.

That could be, but it's counterintuitive, so I've always believed the opposite. However, it's irrelevant because, even if drug use increases, if drug-related harm goes down, this is a good thing and should be encouraged. Whether people choose to use drugs is their own business; harm reduction should be the goal.

Re: Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

#40

Post by colbyolson » Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 9:08 PM UTC

zackattack wrote: post #35

euroclydon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do psychedelics get people thinking for themselves? I've been in and around that culture, and I still wanted to go work at some crappy job so I could be a consumer. I've found that a having clear mind is a much more conducive to uncovering the matrix than being high is.

For me the process was: 1. Take hallucinogens 2. Realize things are really, really fucked up 3. Change

Could you expand on that? Perhaps, if you're comfortable with it, explain your experience with hallucinogens and the conclusions you came to in the end?