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Not Just Any Old Geek

blog.oldgeekjobs.com

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Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#291

Post by citizenkeen »

verbify wrote: post #287
amyjess wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one thing that really worries me. I'm in my early 30s, and I'm perfectly content working a mid-level position. I've seen people my age pass me by several times, and I'm fine with that. I'm not good enough to keep up with the really good engineers, and it's probably going to be a long time before I have 'Senior' in my title, if ever. When I'm in my 50s, I'm just not going to be one of those awesome elder coder…

In twenty years you'll be in your 70's. Most people in their 70's are unemployable, no matter the field. If you don't have a retirement plan, then you got to do some extreme saving and lifestyle adjustment (or you'll face even more extreme lifestyle adjustment once you retire). If you do have a retirement plan, you have nothing to worry about.

No, they're in their 30s. They're concerned about their 50s.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#292

Post by kbob »

losteverything wrote: post #123

Any jobs? I know: Format c: /s FWA BSS 0 \027&l10 And I have my own laplink (with cables!) and will let you borrow my Compaq portable laptop.

Yeah? I know how to invoke IEFBR14 and could probably reimplement it from scratch.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#293

Post by Roboprog »

coldtea wrote: post #155

The fact that 40yo is considered "old" in this industry is why we have such shallow culture and so much cargo cult and rediscovery of stale (or even discarded) techniques as the latest BS fad. Consider a law firm or hospital with no professionals over 40... It fits with SV, because it just needs code monkeys to build what's basically simple apps in whatever language du jour. Things that are touted as big solutions in…

E.g. - "No-SQL" reeks of the "Codasyl" model from the 60s, which relational databases replaced for good reason, whether or not Structured Query Language is the only way to interact with the tuples/tables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODASYL

Ad nauseam...

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#294

Post by amcrouch »

peterbonney wrote: post #154
amcrouch wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps then the issue is that all developers see a path to management as the only way to progress their career and in actual fact there is only a minority of developers who love their job enough to want to do it for their entire career?

Many, but certainly not all. The best developer I know started his career writing software for the original Macintosh in the 80's. He's still primarily a developer. Here's the important question: how many twenty- or thirty-something startup founders hear that and think "dinosaur who writes GOTO statements" (false), versus "awesome hacker who has been constantly seeking out the newest technologies for 30+ years" (true…

That is an interesting point.

Once again I say in a start up I want experience. I want developers that can deliver with minimal management and who GTD rather than work twice as long to deliver tightly coupled, dependency riddled, fashionable code.

Also another point to your comment. If the founders are 20 or 30 something, is that why they are only hiring 20 or 30 something developers. It's their contacts in their network, previous co-workers and friends. Perhaps the issue with start ups in that not that higher percentage are started by 45-50 somethings. Hence it would be interesting to see the split of developers ages compared to the co-founders age.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#295

Post by coldtea »

Roboprog wrote: post #293
coldtea wrote: post #155

The fact that 40yo is considered "old" in this industry is why we have such shallow culture and so much cargo cult and rediscovery of stale (or even discarded) techniques as the latest BS fad. Consider a law firm or hospital with no professionals over 40... It fits with SV, because it just needs code monkeys to build what's basically simple apps in whatever language du jour. Things that are touted as big solutions in…

E.g. - "No-SQL" reeks of the "Codasyl" model from the 60s, which relational databases replaced for good reason, whether or not Structured Query Language is the only way to interact with the tuples/tables. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODASYL Ad nauseam...

Exactly, NoSQLs are nothing new -- they are the tried and failed old, that got replaced by RDBMS for good reasons (unless you also have a good reason, e.g. you run at Google's scale).

People do "data science" and don't even know the various canonical forms (which are mathematical notions that apply to all kinds of data models, not just SQL DBs).

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#296

Post by ChoHag »

crdoconnor wrote: post #193
ChoHag wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that you are doing it effectively at an appropriate speed and quality cannot. Well it can, but not in a way we necessarily like - it's called the marketplace.

It's called a market for lemons.

If "it" is "producing lemons" then yes, you would need a market for lemons in order to guage the production process' quality. Well done, have a cookie. Or a lemon.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#297

Post by curun1r »

jimbokun wrote: post #194
curun1r wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to this realization a few years ago. I found that while my judgment was still improving, my output wasn't and my ability to think through problems wasn't where it used to be, especially when it came to the tiny details. So I moved into management. It allowed me leverage my strengths while putting me in a situation where my value wasn't determined by my raw output. It sucks going to all those meetings, but it h…

How does a programmer go about moving into management?

Ask. I had a conversation with the VP of Eng where I told him that's what I wanted, asked if it was a possibility and what I needed to do to make it happen. He told me what he thought I needed to learn and allowed me to take a couple of hours each week to read, meet with other managers and otherwise prepare. A few months later, when a position became open, he gave me a trial run which converted to perm after a successful month.

Most engineering leadership is very reasonable with requests like this provided you are a very strong performer with the respect of the engineering organization. They realize that promotions from within are morale boosters and developing a reputation for nurturing talent is an amazing recruiting tool.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#298

Post by pc86 »

ccallebs wrote: post #236
pc86 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that sounds neat but the math doesn't match up. You have to be 35 to be President, so being generous let's take a 35 year old now, so they were born in 1982 give or take (2017-35). They would have had to get a programming job right out of HS and even then best case it would have been halfway through 1999. More accurately, they likely didn't enter the workforce until 2004 or 2005.

Y2K bugs didn't disappear when the clock struck midnight on December 31. Many appeared for the first time.

Who was fixing Y2K bugs in 2004/5?

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#299

Post by JustSomeNobody »

mgkimsal wrote: post #84
jwr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.

> We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts It's harder for me to "get stuff done" when then "stuff" is bullshit. There are times when what's being asked for is wrong (stealing code/images/whatever), or a wrong solution to the problem. "Right/Wrong" can be subjective, so I shy away from making those snap judgements until I know more about why something is being asked for, but a…

> A 23 year old in their first job will (generally) just plug away at whatever's given them. Older folks generally won't deal as well with bullshit work.

On the contrary, I've seen far too many 20 somethings that will refuse to do anything that isn't new development.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#300

Post by mgkimsal »

bbarn wrote: post #252
mgkimsal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts It's harder for me to "get stuff done" when then "stuff" is bullshit. There are times when what's being asked for is wrong (stealing code/images/whatever), or a wrong solution to the problem. "Right/Wrong" can be subjective, so I shy away from making those snap judgements until I know more about why something is being asked for, but a…

I see that as a selling point to being more experienced. Intolerance for bullshit is a good trait in many a job.

It really depends on the politics of the office/team/company you're working with. It can either be seen as a huge plus, or a huge minus.
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