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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

321–330 of 441 posts

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#321

You can go get an off-contract sim card, use it on a clean Android, create a fake gmail account in order to download and install Whatsapp. Now you make connections (you add family and friends to your contacts) and start communicating. By now both FB and Google know who you are simply b/c other people in your network, not concerned with privacy, have you saved on their contacts list, pressumably under your first and l…

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

This is a great point. And for convenience, the price you pay is your privacy. Today, anyone is capable of communicating via encrypted email. You can use OpenPGP with an email client, for example.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#322
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GPLv2 contains 2400 words. The AGPLv3 contains 5090 words. They aren't enough for casual non-technical users to read and grok. And they can't be greatly simplified without changing their meaning. Licenses are long and complex not only because they have "bullshit" and "shady stuff" in them. This is an unfortunate fact of life. It's true that some services can do with much simpler TOS. The BSD 3-clause license is 2…

> GPLv2 ... AGPLv3 ... BSD 3-clause None of those licenses are for the user of the software. Some are long(-ish) because they address copyright law and are intended to be read by software authors and distributors, who presumably have the luxury of time to read and research which license they would like to use for their software or 3rd party software they want to redistribute. > Licenses are long and complex not only…

> None of those licenses are for the user of the software

Of course licenses are for the user! Without a license, copyright law forbids you from downloading and running an application, let alone copying it to your other PC or emailing a copy to your friend. Addressing copyright law doesn't makes licenses longer, it makes them exist in the first place.

It's true that the GPL talks about some additional things like access to the source and the right to modify it, which ordinary, non-programmer users don't care about. But you also need it, or some license, to use the software at all. The BSD one is much simpler, but it's still a license and still needed.

Networked services don't fall under copyright law, but other laws exist that prohibit accessing a service (if it requires authentication) except under such terms as the service provider offers to you in a license or other contract.

Another example: when you edit a Wikipedia page, you are presented with this text:

> By saving changes, you agree to the Terms of Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license.

The linked Terms of Use, CC BY-SA, and GFDL contain many thousands of words combined, and require a grounding in copyright law to fully understand. Very few people ever give informed consent when editing Wikipedia.

> the higher standard of informed consent should be used before collecting any data

The Wikipedia article about informed consent says:

> Capacity pertains to the ability of the subject to both understand the information provided and form a reasonable judgment based on the potential consequences of his/her decision.

Most of the people in the world, and a significant part of the population even in Western countries, won't be able to understand the potential consequences of sharing their data.

I can't be sure I fully understand them myself! Twelve years ago, when Gmail was opened, I didn't know de-anonymization of large datasets would prove to be so easy. I didn't imagine Internet mobs doxxing and swatting people. What might be possible ten years from now with the personal data I share today?

If the law puts the burden of verifying the user's understanding on the service - meaning they can't trust the user's assurances - the service would need to administer an exam or interview to each prospective user. And indeed Wikipedia says to get informed consent, "the investigators must ensure that subjects have adequate comprehension of the information provided [....] assessing the level of understanding during the meeting". Obviously this isn't practical for Internet services.

The biggest source of personal data Facebook gathers is what its users post themselves. This would be true even if they didn't gather anything from Whatsapp messages, tracking cookies, etc. So should any services letting users post often-private content, like blogs and image hosters, require "informed consent"? That's just not practical.

I agree there's a problem. I don't see a solution yet. Banning everything until there's a solution is neither practical nor desireable.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#323
post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

>He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by the collection of the most trivial details.

Facebook has all of that and way more. They even know which sites you visit when you're not on Facebook (think Like buttons and logins and various JS libraries that your browser might request as you browse around the web).

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people really cared about mass surveillance would they actively participate in Facebook et al? The problem is: These people weren't using Facebook. They were using WhatsApp which promised to not send their data to Facebook. I don't use either because I personally think it's silly to assume they won't sell your data to someone, but they did make the promise that they wouldn't.

> They were using WhatsApp which promised to not send their data to Facebook. I've seen that mentioned before, but where does it say that? On WhatsApp's ToS it says they won't share WhatsApp data for others to see on Facebook, not that Facebook itself wouldn't use that data.

https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-straight is all I know about

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp users were estimated to have a seven year useful life at the time of their sale. Facebook will want a profit on them, but if the estimate was accurate, there are only five years left until they are used up. Facebook may become increasingly desperate to transfer any remaining users into their primary product.

Estimated by whom?

Sorry, I must have edited that out when I put it to screen.

The estimate appeared in Facebook's 2014 10-K filing.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a useful argument. One could certainly stop stop Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, Snapchat and so on. But you'd have to consider what the impact is; maybe you'll become more distant from friends and family. Maybe you'll miss out on events. These things are pretty important, for obvious reasons, and it's a shallow argument that everybody can simply walk away "instantly with no ill effects". It's up to the indi…

I'm not arguing, just stating simple facts. I have quit many of these things and went back to phones for communication, which still works perfectly well. Do I miss out on things? Maybe. It doesn't harm me in the least. I certainly made no proclamation as to how anyone should live, which you seem to have mistakenly inferred. I suspect that level of unprovoked defensiveness to have an interesting underlying cause.

Your error is confusing "I can" with "people can".

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

I imagine the electric companies made similar arguments at the start of the 20th century. > Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility Agreed. Isn't it more that it becomes so ubiquitous and expected that it starts to be considered a basic utility by the public? In the case of social and IM it's the network effect that matters - where are family and friends. Once a certain tipping…

Facebook Safety Check is considered as such utility by fb themselves, would I be able to use it without fb account?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples of the natural monopolies you are referring to?

Most classic utilities were at one point or another provided privately - water, telephones, electricity are examples. In each of these examples the delivery infrastructure makes them a natural monopoly. Almost any activity you can think of has been carried out by both the public and private sector in different societies (or the same one). In all industries, very dominant firms are likely to see action from the state.

Well, archealogical anthropologists would say that even fire/firemaikng was that at one point in time.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a useful argument. One could certainly stop stop Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, Snapchat and so on. But you'd have to consider what the impact is; maybe you'll become more distant from friends and family. Maybe you'll miss out on events. These things are pretty important, for obvious reasons, and it's a shallow argument that everybody can simply walk away "instantly with no ill effects". It's up to the indi…

I'm not arguing, just stating simple facts. I have quit many of these things and went back to phones for communication, which still works perfectly well. Do I miss out on things? Maybe. It doesn't harm me in the least. I certainly made no proclamation as to how anyone should live, which you seem to have mistakenly inferred. I suspect that level of unprovoked defensiveness to have an interesting underlying cause.

It's pretty baffling. When you suggest that people try simply not using Facebook or WhatsApp they act as though you just suggested they stop eating and breathing.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

It seems the population is literally addicted to FB hence the cognitive dissonance. If anything should be lobbied for it's better mental health services related to social media addiction.

It's scary: the litany of "reasons" that always get brought up to explain why its literally impossible to stop using Facebook often sound a lot like the reasons addicts can't stop doing whatever it is that they do compulsively.
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