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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#271
post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

Absolutely true for older generations, but among those under, say, forty years of age, the 'I don't have anything to hide' fallacy is alive and well just as anywhere else.

I'm German and it's been a huge ordeal to get my closest friends to migrate to Telegram at least. Signal was debated, but the lack of a good desktop client killed it. XMPP and IRC and all, not with these guys.

Germany has some vocal proponents of privacy ideals, like the Chaos Computer Club, but we also have politicians who pull the very same crap as anywhere else.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#272
This is an important discussion, but nobody seems to be asking the question - what is the end goal here for either side?

Lets take the extremes as a beginning..

1. Lets assume every action a person takes is logged. That means every keystroke, cough, heartbeat, meal, path taken etc... for everyone on the planet is tracked somewhere in some system.

2. On the flip side lets say that nothing is logged and we stop using systems that track our behavior altogether.

- What are the costs and benefits to either extreme and where would the people of the future prefer to lie on that extreme? Is there a realistic middle ground?

If the question is about informed consent then I am afraid it's a losing battle. Consumers do not understand even the basic externalities of different behaviors - and even if you printed them on the label it would mostly be noise. So to expect that people will understand all possible negative externalities with sharing data is a bridge too far.

I personally think that more accurate lifestyle data, provided by users to Machine systems, with the purpose of affecting behaviors, based on stated and revealed preferences of the users would be the best long term outcome. Offloading decision making to a machine is the best decision we will ever make as a species - and that requires a lot of training data and other data to optimize.

Otherwise we might as well just go back to everyone being a farmer.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook will still build a "shadow profile" of you, based on information gleaned from contacts.

How could someone have me in their Facebook contacts if I don't have an account?

I haven't activated my FB account in years now, but can't members still add you as a family member even if you don't have an account?

I avoid FB more out of principle, not because of some deluded idea that I can avoid FB having my information. The solution "stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software" is harmful at worst and flippant at best.

Unless you never get your photo taken, your face is on FB and any other social media service your friends and family use. Unless you only have friends and family who never use FB, WhatsApp, LinkedIn, etc., your name, phone number, and email are on those services.

The idea that not using these services stops them from getting your information is fanciful, because your friends and family have no problem giving your information.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#274
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or to call them on the phone, talk to them in person, send them an E-mail or letter.. You know, the things we all did in ancient times like 5 years ago?

Yes, it's completely reasonable to replace real-time group chat with... a conference call among 6 friends? Hey guys, I know ALL of you chat with WhatsApp, but can we move to email just for me and my concerns around security that you don't care about at all? Seriously... you can make completely unreasonable suggestions until you're blue in the face but it's not going to change reality. There are very real social press…

I don't know what app-of-the-week my friends use to chat with each other, but they return my E-mails and answer my phone calls. If one's friends won't communicate with them unless they're using a particular brand of messaging app, are they really friends?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook will still build a "shadow profile" of you, based on information gleaned from contacts.

How could someone have me in their Facebook contacts if I don't have an account?

Because for example you could have sent them an Email, SMS or called at some point and are in their phone contacts/contact book. That user then shared their phone contacts with FB.

So even though you may not have signed up for FB, they have [your name]{your number} in a table somewhere so that when and if you do sign-up it will be easy to link you with people you already have contacted.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

No, you can't stop using Facebook. On a lot of carrier provided phones, it cannot be uninstalled. And if you've signed in once, it will continue to run, auto update, and collect your information.

On every Android phone I've used, you can always disable the carrier-provided apps, so they won't show up in your app tray, or run any processes. iOS doesn't pre-install it, and I've no idea what Windows Phone does.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#277
post #168
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate? I am using Telegram not because of privacy concerns but because of the desktop and tablet clients. I had absolutely no issues so far.

Telegram's weak points, as far as I can tell: * chats not end-to-end encrypted by default (only secure chats), so clear text is on their servers * group chats can't be secure chats * the crypto is somewhat unconventional. While the developers had their reasons (constraints of mobile platforms), and no exploit has been found so far, AFAIK, any self-rolled crypto is a bit of a red flag to cryptographers. * I have no re…

Telegram is not based in Russia. Pavel Durov fled the country and is currently operating Telegram from Germany.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should the user be required to correctly answer some quiz questions about the TOS every time they use the product? I don't think any users would agree to that, for any product. Well, that's technically a problem of service provider. If you're afraid your product won't be used because of a complicated TOS, then... simplify the TOS. Drop the tons of legal bullshit, and stop hiding shady stuff in it. The more I think…

The GPLv2 contains 2400 words. The AGPLv3 contains 5090 words. They aren't enough for casual non-technical users to read and grok. And they can't be greatly simplified without changing their meaning. Licenses are long and complex not only because they have "bullshit" and "shady stuff" in them. This is an unfortunate fact of life. It's true that some services can do with much simpler TOS. The BSD 3-clause license is 2…

> GPLv2 ... AGPLv3 ... BSD 3-clause

None of those licenses are for the user of the software. Some are long(-ish) because they address copyright law and are intended to be read by software authors and distributors, who presumably have the luxury of time to read and research which license they would like to use for their software or 3rd party software they want to redistribute.

> Licenses are long and complex not only because they have "bullshit" and "shady stuff" in them.

That's fine. Now find a way to explain it plainly to the user so they can make an informed decision.

> But how short and simple does a license need to be to make the average user actually read it before clicking OK?

Well, that varies, but you can be sure that anybody that clicked OK after only a few seconds did not read anything. Choosing to continue when you know the contract wasn't read is prima facie evidence that no contract was established.

However, the larger problem is you think simply presenting legalease and waiting for someone to click OK can ever meet the standard of informed consent[1], which is a much stronger requirement than the click that's required for some contracts. Contract law is sufficient for most of what's in an TOS, but data is very important and most people have a poor understanding of what is being collected and what is possible when their data is aggregated with other sources. To protect people, the higher standard of informed consent should be used before collecting any data. This would only apply to the data you want to collect, not the entire TOS.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent#Valid_element...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#279
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's completely reasonable to replace real-time group chat with... a conference call among 6 friends? Hey guys, I know ALL of you chat with WhatsApp, but can we move to email just for me and my concerns around security that you don't care about at all? Seriously... you can make completely unreasonable suggestions until you're blue in the face but it's not going to change reality. There are very real social press…

I don't know what app-of-the-week my friends use to chat with each other, but they return my E-mails and answer my phone calls. If one's friends won't communicate with them unless they're using a particular brand of messaging app, are they really friends?

Yes, they're really friends. If my friends all use whatsapp to organize parties, and I refuse to use it and force them to email me as a special one-off, am I really a friend? Because I know they'd love to have a back-and-forth conversation about timing/place/duties related to the party, then have to constantly send one-off emails to get my feedback.

Let me guess - in your world they're all assholes for not constantly inconveniencing themselves to cater specifically to what you want. Or you just literally have no social life, because picking up a phone isn't really a viable option to plan a party with a large group of friends. And while email will work, when nobody else wants to use it and you try to force the issue, you're an asshole.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that externalities alone cannot ever be sufficient justification for a ban, no matter how bad the externalities are?

No, I just think the bar for banning consenting adults from entering into an agreement should be very high, because the negative externalities of doing it too often are extremely grave as well.

Which seems to be a different argument entirely, namely one of weighing the positive externalities against the negative externalities? I guess I would agree with that.

Now, there is actually precedent for banning consenting adults from sharing private information in order to ensure the survival of the democracy that is quite common in stable democracies: You are usually not allowed to prove to third parties how you voted in an election. That's only because of the externalities that that can have on the democracy if third parties can pressure you into voting a certain way/can buy your votes.

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