What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers • Hacker News Board

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#111

Post by wvenable » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #97

zwieback wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent the last 16 years at HP in inkjet printhead manufacturing and R&D. Roughly speaking, we've come up with two models: - disposable cartridges with printheads (what most people have at home), here we have to recoup the cost of the disposed silicon printhead and the low initial price of the printer - permanent printheads (what you're asking for) and disposable ink "tanks" of various capacities, here the challe…

Obviously I'm older, but I'd prefer to pay a little more, and give you some profit, for a printer that's built to last, with some metal, rather than Then pay a reasonable price for cartridge with printhead ongoing, otherwise, if I'm successful keeping the printer as long as possible, I'm still recouping the low cost of the printer long past the point I bought enough ink to do so. I don't need high throughput, heavy d…

I bought a color laser printer for a few hundred bucks and despite almost never having to print anything it's one of the better purchases I've made.

It just works. It's not wasteful. And it won't dry out from lack of use. I figure I'll break even over buying ink-jet printers and cartridges in another year or so. Even if everything costs more in short term, it's so much less wasteful.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#112

Post by strictfp » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #73

alistairSH wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another Brother laser printer user here. I did have some strange networking problems when I initially configured mine for wireless use. The Macs on the network consistently lost the ability to connect. My son eventually resolved the problem, though I never bothered to ask how. Never had that issue with Canon, but so far, I much happier with the Brother. The toner cartridge lasts WAY longer than the Canon inkjet and p…

I have same zombie connectivity issue with Mac clients. Have to walk over and bounce the printer. Doesn't happen with Windows. Would love to know your son's fix.

Does your printer set up its own WiFi? Had this happen at one location, interference caused spontanious connectivity drops.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#113

Post by aidenn0 » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #70

corecoder wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they have rights to sell what they want No, they don't. They cannot sell a device that harms you or your neighbours, for instance. More to the point, they cannot sell a device that prevents competition.

You're taking that statement too literally. When people say something like that it's with the understanding they imply legal provisions apply. So, in this case, if it's not legal and HP committed some commercial offence they can and should be sued for non compliance.

The GP post is suggesting we make what HP did illegal, so that companies will be discouraged from doing it in the future.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#114

Post by danudey » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

vc4devil wrote: post #50

3chelon wrote: post #31

I once got a full refund on a laptop outside of its warranty period because a software update (Windows 8.1) effectively bricked the machine. I demanded it under the UK Sale of Goods Act, which states that a product must be fit for purpose, which it clearly no longer was once the automatic update had happened. I do wonder if this can be more broadly applied to consumer products that effectively change their behaviour…

The issue is why do people in UK/USA put up with this Orwellian customer control business model? In Asia if a company were to do these things the business would be burnt to the ground, and/or family selling the inferior by design products. ... This is silly, the printer biz has always been 'give away the camera, and take the first born when they need film' You go abroad ASIA and every printer ink or cartridge, as a b…

Because people in the US don't understand value, only cost.

A lot of what you discuss fits into this pattern. Buy a cheap $30 printer on sale, and then spend $30 more per ink cartridge for the life of the printer. A lot of people when they run out of ink literally buy a new printer, because it comes with ink, it's almost as cheap and they 'may as well'. They don't realize that it doesn't come with a full tank of ink, or that spending more on a printer means a better quality printer that lasts ten times longer.

Likewise health care. People don't want to pay more (or perceive that they're paying more) in order to have a better-functioning system that works better for everyone. They don't understand that everyone paying slightly more into the pot means a health care system that doesn't turn you away because the nearby hospital isn't 'in-network' so you have to go across town for your insurance to cover your emergency. My wife had to go to the ER the other night, and she chose based on reported wait times of nearby hospitals, rather than which one our insurance would actually pay for. Likewise, not having to pay a $25 co-pay every time you go to the doctor means that you can go to the doctor more often and keep your health up to date, rather than waiting until things are dire before you cough up the $25.

I've also seen lots of people buy Android phones because 'it's like half the price' of an iPhone or a premium Android, and then find out that they were never going to get software updates from the manufacturer again, that the performance was awful, and then turn around and end up buying a new one a year later. Meanwhile, people on the iPhone 5 (five years old) are reporting that iOS 10 actually works pretty well on their device and doesn't slow it down as much as they'd expected, and I know people with a Nexus 5 (three years old) who are still going strong on the latest Android updates because they paid slightly more at checkout.

Fundamentally, commerce in the US has become a race to the bottom: who can offer the cheapest product without consumers realizing that it's cheap because of cut corners and misfeatures.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#115

Post by danudey » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #57

Agustus wrote: post #13

A brother MFC is $250, is sturdier and does not hate me as a consumer. Changing a toner is $50 per cartridge. I recommend it to every person looking for a printer: Buy a laser printer.

Another Brother laser printer user here. I did have some strange networking problems when I initially configured mine for wireless use. The Macs on the network consistently lost the ability to connect. My son eventually resolved the problem, though I never bothered to ask how. Never had that issue with Canon, but so far, I much happier with the Brother. The toner cartridge lasts WAY longer than the Canon inkjet and p…

I bought a wireless colour Brother laser printer in 2010. I basically don't touch it except when something needs printing. No cleaning, no maintenance. Still has the original toner cartridges, still works great and prints instantly. Works with basically any OS trivially; it even supports lpd, so it should theoretically work with anything as recent as Version 6 AT&T UNIX, but I don't know anyone with a UNIX system from 1975 so I haven't been able to test that theory.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#116

Post by Mister_Snuggles » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

Agustus wrote: post #13

A brother MFC is $250, is sturdier and does not hate me as a consumer. Changing a toner is $50 per cartridge. I recommend it to every person looking for a printer: Buy a laser printer.

Laser printers are the way to go.

I finally, after 12 years, bought my first cartridge for my Lexmark personal laser printer. The only other things I've had to do to this printer are refill the paper tray and use some Rubber Renue[0] on the rubber bits that pick the paper up.

This printer spends most of its time idle and goes months without printing anything, yet whenever I hit print it wakes up and prints a page. There's no worry about drying ink or clogging print heads or wasting half your ink to the self-cleaning cycles.

[0] http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaning-products-for-el...

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#117

Post by initram » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #97

zwieback wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent the last 16 years at HP in inkjet printhead manufacturing and R&D. Roughly speaking, we've come up with two models: - disposable cartridges with printheads (what most people have at home), here we have to recoup the cost of the disposed silicon printhead and the low initial price of the printer - permanent printheads (what you're asking for) and disposable ink "tanks" of various capacities, here the challe…

Obviously I'm older, but I'd prefer to pay a little more, and give you some profit, for a printer that's built to last, with some metal, rather than Then pay a reasonable price for cartridge with printhead ongoing, otherwise, if I'm successful keeping the printer as long as possible, I'm still recouping the low cost of the printer long past the point I bought enough ink to do so. I don't need high throughput, heavy d…

I'm mostly in the same boat as you. However, I have found that with electronics, you run the risk of your beloved older piece of equipment not even being able to connect to your newer equipment because it doesn't have the latest connector (SCSI, Firewire, USB-2, USB-3, USB-C, Thunderbolt, Lightning, VGA, XGA, DVI, Mini-Display Port, HDMI, composite, component, etc.). On top of that, you have the issue of drivers and apps that can talk to the thing, too. Not as bad in the case of a printer, but still an issue for many devices.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#118

Post by jackhack » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

vc4devil wrote: post #50

3chelon wrote: post #31

I once got a full refund on a laptop outside of its warranty period because a software update (Windows 8.1) effectively bricked the machine. I demanded it under the UK Sale of Goods Act, which states that a product must be fit for purpose, which it clearly no longer was once the automatic update had happened. I do wonder if this can be more broadly applied to consumer products that effectively change their behaviour…

The issue is why do people in UK/USA put up with this Orwellian customer control business model? In Asia if a company were to do these things the business would be burnt to the ground, and/or family selling the inferior by design products. ... This is silly, the printer biz has always been 'give away the camera, and take the first born when they need film' You go abroad ASIA and every printer ink or cartridge, as a b…

Because, from healthcare, to consumer products, to software, to books, the US is paying full price to subsidize the cost to much of the world. The US is the profit center that makes possible the steeply-discounted-almost-free sales elsewhere.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#119

Post by nixos » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

loup-vaillant wrote: post #60

smithkl42 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of overstating things, isn't it? Yes, what HP did was balls-up stupid, and I'll think hard before buying anything from them, but companies have liberties too. They have rights to free speech (you don't want the government telling newspapers what to print), and they have rights to sell what they want, just as we have rights to not buy the merde they try to force on us. Twitter has the right to shut down sp…

> companies have liberties too. They have rights to free speech Maybe they shouldn't. Companies are not people, and as such don't have the same moral standing. Only the people that comprise them do.

But then the US government would be able to tell the NYT, CNN and NBC what to print and what not to print (No, you may not print that news which embarrasses the President, It's against Regulation 5v).

> Only the people that comprise them do.

That may work to defend Facebook and Twitter (which allows anyone to post anything, Copyright stays with author, so perhaps it can get away with "safe harbor"). Once the newspaper decides anything (and definitely if it owns the IP), it's now their freedom of speech which is impaired, not the authors.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#120

Post by robotresearcher » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #84

untothebreach wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had great luck with Brother drivers on all the linux machines I've ever tried to use them with, so I would consider that a good option as well.

Agreed, run 100% linux with a brother printer, works great. Setting it up was very simple. I didn't consider buying HP for a second not because of their drivers but because I have an association of HP producing total garbage.

> I have an association of HP producing total garbage.

It's so sad what they did to their brand. A cheapish HP laser has been our main lab printer for 14 years and zillions of pages. When I bought it HP was the no-brainer buy. Is it really true that if I bought one now it'd be no good?