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What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

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Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#71

Post by SyneRyder »

frandroid wrote: post #59
SyneRyder wrote: post #5

I generally like the EFF, and I'm a member (albeit at a low paying level)... but if you're really unhappy about this, isn't it better just to stop buying HP printer products? Rather than being so activist & "omg outrage!", why doesn't the EFF publish a list of printers that the EFF currently does recommend? Almost like the Wirecutter does with their product testing reviews. (It sounds like Epson might be one alternat…

The specific problem here was that this was a booby-trap feature that users couldn't prevent from happening because it got "added" to the product months after the purchasing decision. HP was able to go forward in time to modify the product, post-purchase, but you can't go back in time to get a refund.

Why can't you get a refund? Has HP denied refunds to customers who wanted to return their printer over this matter?

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#72

Post by TeMPOraL »

mattkevan wrote: post #36

I've made a solemn vow never to purchase a HP product again, after I discovered that the printer I'd bought (from a major UK retailer) was region-locked to US ink. Which you can't buy in the UK. I threw that thing into the e-waste bin with some force when it finally broke.

I firmly believe that the best use of those printers is disassembling them and taking their stepper motors for use in DIY 3D printers and other CNC machines.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#73

Post by specialist »

alistairSH wrote: post #57
Agustus wrote: post #13

A brother MFC is $250, is sturdier and does not hate me as a consumer. Changing a toner is $50 per cartridge. I recommend it to every person looking for a printer: Buy a laser printer.

Another Brother laser printer user here. I did have some strange networking problems when I initially configured mine for wireless use. The Macs on the network consistently lost the ability to connect. My son eventually resolved the problem, though I never bothered to ask how. Never had that issue with Canon, but so far, I much happier with the Brother. The toner cartridge lasts WAY longer than the Canon inkjet and p…

I have same zombie connectivity issue with Mac clients. Have to walk over and bounce the printer. Doesn't happen with Windows.

Would love to know your son's fix.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#74

Post by specialist »

kijin wrote: post #25
jasonkostempski wrote: post #17

Why is the EFF getting involved now? HP has been doing stuff like this for well over 15 years. And why are they calling for apologies and promises? They should be calling for open source software and firmware so things like this can't happen.

EFF is calling for HP to publicly promise not to invoke section 1201 of DMCA against researchers and aftermarket vendors. This is necessary in order for anyone in the U.S. to develop open-source software or firmware for HP printers.

Aha. Thank you for explaining.

I've been wondering why there are no open source projects. After some casual searching, I found one DIY project that uses a commercially available inkjet cartridge.

Previously, I looked on ebay to see what OEM toner drums etc would cost. It might just be cheaper, faster to buy a Brother laser and replace the smarts.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#75

Post by trcollinson »

chefandy wrote: post #68
trcollinson wrote: post #64

Full disclosure, I am a former HP Engineer who worked with HP Labs, mostly in the Computer Vision area, and 100% productizing their labs research into viable profit streams. Your milage on my comments may vary. I am not going to attempt to justify what HP does but it will probably sound as though I am (try to remember myself and my entire team were laid off as unprofitable because we were 5% off on our $1 Billion rev…

Yay Stockholm syndrome. "How much would it change your perception if you found out that a good portion of the refill ink market is also supplied by HP?" Keeping in mind that the median personal income in the US is around 45k per year, how much would you care whether HP made that printer ink or not if you invested hard-earned salary in a printer several months ago, and stocked up on a few hundred bucks worth of cheape…

Now now, let's not get into poor arguments and logical fallacies. First off, read the rest of my comment, there is more to it.

Second, you pose an interesting question. I am assuming this isn't what you did, but let's pretend for a moment that it really is what you did. Let's also assume that HP printers let you use your cheaper ink. Again, you start printing things with your cheaper ink and suddenly your papers are bleeding onto the back of the next page as they sit in the printer tray. Your photo prints don't come out looking like the photos on your screen or your phone. Your prints fade easily. Your prints don't hold up to even a small amount of water dripping on them. Your ink cartridge heads start to gunk up and won't print. Now what do you do? Do realize that you bought cheap ink and that the ink you bought it not up to the quality you wanted? Do you call the cheaper ink manufacturer and complain? Or do you call up HP and complain their your printer breaks?

You are a smart engineer. You would realize that you did not buy a quality ink product and you got what you paid for. But would everyone?

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#76

Post by specialist »

onion2k wrote: post #7
in_the_sticks wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Color laser printers are getting fairly cheap (mine's a basic printer, granted, but it was quite a bit cheaper than the cheapest EcoTank models). You don't have to worry about your ink drying out or print heads getting clogged.

That's great if you print a couple of hundred pages a year, but if you print a couple of hundred pages a day a cheap color laser printer will be very expensive to run and it'll break down often enough to be a significant problem. No doubt your printer serves you well, but that doesn't mean it's a good solution for everyone.

Huh.

There was a time when cost per (large format) page (high to low) was inkjet, laser, electrostatic.

In fact, with our print volumes, switching from inkjet to the $100k electrostatic would pay for itself in 3 months. Inkjet prints cost $1.40 per vs 0.10 for electrostatic. Laser was somewhere in the middle.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#77

Post by sqeaky »

smithkl42 wrote: post #35
praptak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because consumer choice is a very weak weapon against your freedoms being taken away. Political action is what corporations fear, in particular the threat of organized support behind ideas to regulate them more heavily. Edit: RMS quote: "All in all, I think it is a mistake to defend people’s rights with one hand tied behind our backs, using nothing except the individual option to say no to a deal. We should use democ…

That's kind of overstating things, isn't it? Yes, what HP did was balls-up stupid, and I'll think hard before buying anything from them, but companies have liberties too. They have rights to free speech (you don't want the government telling newspapers what to print), and they have rights to sell what they want, just as we have rights to not buy the merde they try to force on us. Twitter has the right to shut down sp…

Stallman never said to avoid using consumer choice. People publishing lists of bogus printers is stronger than just choice because it could coordinate a larger group.

I wonder what would happen to stock prices in printer companies if it became common practice for the the EFF, FSF, and several other noteworthy, but not yet large groups published lists quarterly saying not to buy HP printer and recommending good competitor devices.

It would be a good service to the public and could possibly attract more donations and if just a few news outlets ran with it there could a few % points dropped from HP stock price. If the shareholders ain't happy, then nobody at HP is happy.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#78

Post by icefo »

makecheck wrote: post #69

Printer cartridges are emblematic of the (sadly widespread) tendency for companies to build things that are obviously wasteful, and clear alternatives should be available. Every time you have to “throw away” something that looks 70% reusable (or in the case of printer ink, not even fully empty), it’s aggravating. We really need to push all companies to build reuse deeply into their products so that none of them feels…

Epson did it: http://www.epson.com/ecotank

I didn't bought it because it was too big to fit on my desk and I don't know if I will buy an other Epson because they drivers are bad on my Debian. I should try to upgrade them. HP is pretty terrible but the Linux drivers are impressive.

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#79

Post by [deleted] »

SyneRyder wrote: post #5

I generally like the EFF, and I'm a member (albeit at a low paying level)... but if you're really unhappy about this, isn't it better just to stop buying HP printer products? Rather than being so activist & "omg outrage!", why doesn't the EFF publish a list of printers that the EFF currently does recommend? Almost like the Wirecutter does with their product testing reviews. (It sounds like Epson might be one alternat…

[deleted]

Re: What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing Printers

#80

Post by washadjeffmad »

Agustus wrote: post #13

A brother MFC is $250, is sturdier and does not hate me as a consumer. Changing a toner is $50 per cartridge. I recommend it to every person looking for a printer: Buy a laser printer.

I bought a monochrome HL series almost a decade ago (on sale for $50), and haven't yet needed to replace the drum. I buy toner refills for $15 once or twice a year, and it's always had Linux support. Total cost of ownership, paper excluded, has been around $20/yr.

I'm about to buy a new Brother color laser, as soon as they go on sale again. I'm strangely thrilled.

I was gifted a high end HPOJ Pro and a small mountain of cartridges (it takes 5 or 6 colors!) several years ago (my SO used it for school), and the cartridges once installed dried out or 'expired' long before they were ever depleted.

Now that she doesn't need it, it's going to electronic recycling sooner than later. If they hadn't thrown in the ink, I couldn't imagine shelling out $45-60 on it at regular intervals just to be able to print anything. It's practically a subscription fee shakedown just to use the damned thing.

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