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Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

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Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#301

Post by devdas »

acd wrote: post #295

Globalisation vs the environment Globalisation means consuming cheap stuff made in a low cost country that does usually not last that long and transported over long distances. Built to consume in cellphones are integrated batteries and cheap components that by design fail after three years so we buy a new phone. Integrated storage of a limited size that you cannot expand. Making things that does not last is more prof…

Taxes. Externalities can be factored into the price. Build the price of recycling into the product, and make the vendor liable.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#302

Post by pm »

nugator wrote: post #233
sliverstorm wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another angle too. For a long time the only tailor in town was basically a bridal tailor. They charged steep prices for simple work on everyday clothing, and wait times were long. Fast forward to today. I had ripped holes in a few pairs of pants, and was wondering if it made sense to have them repaired- I was pretty sure I was going to be charged as much as the pants were worth for a fairly simple repair. Luc…

Nudie Jeans company in Sweden offer free repairs on their jeans. So that's another way to go. (I'm not affiliated with them) https://www.nudiejeans.com/page/this-is-nudie-jeans

They also send you free repair kits too, which I'm about to use on my pair of them.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#303

Post by logfromblammo »

brianwawok wrote: post #283
logfromblammo wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better software analogy would be calling an API method whose signature has never changed over 20 years. It would be like making a call to the Windows API, one that has been available since DirectX 2.0a, to play a sound clip. Styling and design still have room to work if your engine compartment standard does little more than define a minimum volume of unobstructed interior space and several fixed mount point locatio…

I think you skipped all my points on safety advances, that there is no way could have been future proofed for. Using a 20 year old windows api is different in that it doesn't put your life in danger. A 20 year old crumple zone and 20 year old airbag technology DOES increase your risk of death.

It is up to the consumer whether it would be better to spend their limited budget on upgrading an older car where safety retrofitting is not possible, or on migrating to a newer car.

You can't have a standard for a technology that doesn't exist yet. But anything that does have a standard can likely be repaired and upgraded more cheaply in the future. It preserves more of the value in the used cars.

If someone really needs those side-curtain air bags, they would be able to trade in their old vehicle, at a higher price, to someone who doesn't value safety features as highly, and use the proceeds to help pay for a newer vehicle with more of those features.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#304

Post by pbhjpbhj »

sokoloff wrote: post #272
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent underestimated the costs, you're underestimating the saving. Whilst the first consumer saves €20, or whatever, the item can't be repaired by an onward buyer either making its second-hand cost approach zero. They save €20 off the purchase and lose €100 of the sale at the end of their ownership. Moreover the societal cost is vastly increased as the machine gets dumped (or possibly stripped for reusable parts…

The seal that fails is the small seal on the back of the drum that keeps the grease on the outside of the tub and the caustic wash water from the bearing. It runs (with a spring backer) between the fixed part of the machine and the tub at full RPM, with hot, slightly caustic wash water in it. Those simply aren't lifetime seals and can't reasonably be made to be so. It's the seal here: https://www.amazon.com/Front-Was…

Ah, presumably then that's the main source of the bearing failures? TIL, thanks.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#305

Post by ptaipale »

crpatino wrote: post #256
trevyn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it's actually tremendously efficient to do it this way, in a way that is not inutitive to the layperson? There are many many other uses for oil and polymer and shipping capacity, and the plastic cutlery industry can leverage these incredible economies of scale.

It is only efficient because of the tragedy of the commons; The "plastic cutlery industry" can rake in all the profits of the (literal) garbage they produce, but the whole society is left with the cost of disposing it. One would think that having people pay for the full cost of garbage disposal would steer companies into producing reusable, optimal-duration plastics... but the most likely outcome of this would be a e…

>The "plastic cutlery industry" can rake in all the profits of the (literal) garbage they produce, but the whole society is left with the cost of disposing it.

Where I live, the one who bought the plastic cutlery throws it into garbage and pays the full cost for the disposal of that garbage.

And it's converted to energy, finally.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#306

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

Animats wrote: post #300

There are downsides to repairability. It means more fasteners to come loose, and more connectors to give trouble. It means more bulky devices; you can't cram everything in as tightly if it has to come out later. I restore old Teletype machines, which were designed to be 100% repairable. You can take them apart down to the individual parts and put them back together. Everything is attached with screws and lockwashers.…

Are those museum pieces, or are there some insane industries still using actual Teletypes?

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#307

Post by ptaipale »

crpatino wrote: post #253
J-dawg wrote: post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

> Anecdotally I've heard of examples where (e.g.) washing china plates has a greater carbon cost than using disposable ones. Only if you use a dishwasher. IF you do dishes by hand, the only cost is water and soap. Strictly speaking from an environmental point of view the time you spend doing it would be considered a "gain" instead of a "cost", given that you will be probably not engaging in modern electronic entertai…

No. Dishwasher uses less energy, less water and less detergent. [0]

Of course things depend on your use case - if you really have just that one cup and spoon, then handwashing may be better, at least if you are happy with some grease left in the dishes.

[0] http://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/dishwasher-vs-handw...

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#308

Post by ptaipale »

jogjayr wrote: post #214
nickpsecurity wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Putin acts" Are you describing Russia or Sweden?

I think the poster was referring to Sweden not spending on military despite having a potentially hostile neighbor (or near-enough; not sure if Sweden shares a border with Russia)

They don't; Finland is in between as a buffer. Traditionally, Finland had stronger land forces and guerilla warfare capacity, Sweden had stronger navy and air force. That's pretty much gone now.

Sweden is btw considering to bring back the draft (conscription), and now it would be both for men and women.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#309

Post by ptaipale »

AJ007 wrote: post #134
mseebach wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is great. The problems will be with the implementation, how it will change incentives, any loopholes introduced, cost of enforcement and unintended consequences. What exactly is a repair? Are parts covered, or only labour? Think ship of Theseus. Is an upgrade a repair, can I put a better compressor, rather than like-for-like in my refrigerator when it's failed? Can I have my TV repaired by replacing all the…

A alternative approach could be taxing garbage. Perhaps inevitable once sensors become pervasive and cheap enough. Too some extent this is already done and enforced for disposing of blatantly dangerous things. In some cases you could end up in prison in addition to fines, if caught. The more subtle things that add up to a big problem have been given a lot of leeway. Right now it is profitable for many parties to extr…

> A alternative approach could be taxing garbage.

There actually is a garbage tax (avfallsskatt) in Sweden. 500 SEK (59 USD) per ton.

This is in Swedish, but Google translate might help you. https://www.skatteverket.se/foretagochorganisationer/skatter...

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#310

Post by ptaipale »

ryandrake wrote: post #155
AJ007 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A alternative approach could be taxing garbage. Perhaps inevitable once sensors become pervasive and cheap enough. Too some extent this is already done and enforced for disposing of blatantly dangerous things. In some cases you could end up in prison in addition to fines, if caught. The more subtle things that add up to a big problem have been given a lot of leeway. Right now it is profitable for many parties to extr…

Currently companies externalize the cost of disposing their products. You and I having to pay a bigger garbage bill is not going to change the behavior of the companies making all of this trash. If it were possible to query everything that went into a landfill, and bill the entire value chain proportionally for its disposal cost, THEN we might start to have a fair system and see changes. Current incentives are to pro…

>Currently companies externalize the cost of disposing their products.

At least Nordic countries have a system which shifts this burden to manufacturers or importers of stuff. It's called "product responsibility (fee)". (Producentansvar).

Small companies are excluded, the threshold is somewhere around 1M€ per year turnover.

Not sure if there is any EU wide regulation.I wouldn't be surprised if even some U.S. states had something similar.

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