Live data from Hacker News

Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

fastcoexist.com

261–270 of 336 posts

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#261

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

There's another angle too. For a long time the only tailor in town was basically a bridal tailor. They charged steep prices for simple work on everyday clothing, and wait times were long. Fast forward to today. I had ripped holes in a few pairs of pants, and was wondering if it made sense to have them repaired- I was pretty sure I was going to be charged as much as the pants were worth for a fairly simple repair. Luc…

Two ideas since I hate things that breaks for no good reason:

I bought a "used" (actually just preowned, not used) but real sewing machine for about $50 last year .

Even simpler I also figured out that especially for jeans fabric glue is amazingly simple to get right (IMO, YMMW) and if I apply it before damage is done nobody even notices, just make sure you use another washed out fabric, apply fabric glue evenly and apply it to the inside of the knees etc.

Edit: removed unnecessary details

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#262

What we really need is financial penalties on companies that make stuff deliberately hard to repair. Set up a department of the Consumer Rights Bureau (or whatever it's called) where people can report devices the've been unable to fix due to deliberate obfuscation/etc., and that forces manufacturers to refund the consumer the entire purchase sum of that device no matter how old it is. Anecdote: my washing machine rec…

I'm no communist, but sometimes I wish there was less model churn "innovation". Just have a standard "Model T" washing machine that covered 95% of the market. Patents expired, several generic manufacturers, economies of scale, new and used parts readily available, websites dedicated to it...

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the insulated cabinet portion of the fridge could easily last 100 years, just by replacing the door seals every now and then. Why would you want to throw that out with the parts that should be upgraded every 10 years for energy efficiency reasons? Those old cars could be made as efficient as new ones by replacing every part in them other than the chassis. That's prohibitively expensive now, but mo…

For arguments like this, it is easier to look backwards than forwards. So let's take a 20 year old car, and pretend it was future proofed to take more upgrades. Would you want it today? * The style wouldn't be right at all. So let's pretend that we are globally willing to accept out of style things for the sake of the environment. Which is a big if, but let's go with it. * The steering wheel may or may not have airba…

A better software analogy would be calling an API method whose signature has never changed over 20 years. It would be like making a call to the Windows API, one that has been available since DirectX 2.0a, to play a sound clip.

Styling and design still have room to work if your engine compartment standard does little more than define a minimum volume of unobstructed interior space and several fixed mount point locations. You can make an ATX computer case look like practically anything, so long as the screw holes are in the right place, the I/O shield is the right size, and you leave enough internal clearance for the CPU cooler and video card.

The mount point locations became standard on outboard motors in the 80s, when Yamaha decided to use the same pattern as BRP (then OMC), who had in turn copied the pattern used by Evinrude in the 60s. So you could possibly buy a 50-year-old boat and mount a new outboard motor onto it without drilling any new holes or replacing the transom. The outboard motor bolt hole pattern standard does not affect the thickness of the seat cushions, or the size of the docking cleats, or anything else. You can have many different standards that are not mutually incompatible.

The idea is that auto manufacturers would add to a list of standards, rarely obsoleting some. Maybe the 20-year-old car only conforms to the engine compartment standard and the front-wheel-drive automatic transmission standard. The 15-year-old car conforms to those and to the steering wheel (with airbag) standard. The 10-year-old car conforms to those, plus a side-impact standard and a rollover safety standard. So you might not be able to upgrade the 20-year-old car to be as safe as the new car, but you could certainly upgrade it to be as fuel-efficient or as powerful, which might be all you really care about until the frame rusts out. If you are lucky, the old car might have been the basis for a newer standard, and you could upgrade some things as though it were conformant to begin with. A new car would certainly conform to all the existing standards, and if its standards-conforming side-impact air bags were recalled 3 years later, any mechanic would be able to replace them, instead of just the dealers for one maker.

Any given standard would only be replaced by an improved standard, and that might still be backwards compatible to the old standard. So I certainly would take that future-proofed 20-year-old car with a brand-new off-the-shelf powertrain in it, especially if it cost only $8k instead of the $24k I might otherwise have to spend on an entirely new vehicle.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#264
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not to the detriment of any one specific company.

But any one company could claim to have been affected, and produce the paperwork/numbers to back it up.

it would fail on the public good criteria, that is the law is aimed at improving recycling rates not harming companies bottom line. If there was some protectionism going on it would be different. It should have the effect of making companies improve repairability (is that a word?) to make themselves more attractive to buyers.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#265

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

Why tax incentives? We have too many of those already.

I'd hope that if that government had to spend less dealing with discarded products (aka trash/recycling) as a result of manufacturer actions/practices, they'd pass those savings on.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#266
post #251

Repairs are uneconomical because they have to compete with the assembly line. Assembly lines are an incredibly productive way to make identical things. Repairs are typically different. Like Tolstoy said, "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

You can adjust assembly lines to make your products easier to repair though. For ex: it's far easier to fix my old thinkpad laptop than my newer X1. Part of this is the demand for smaller/thinner products but I also feel it's a lack of effort by the manufacturers these days.

They are almost incentivized to make repair difficult and deprioritize longevity in favour of the customer buying new devices each year. Which is about as long as any of my cell phones typically last before I break or lose them (1-1.5yrs), although I'm a bit clumsy and forgetful (a symptom of ADD :P).

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#267
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. I have not heard any "cut VAT" scheme that doesn't sound really sensible. My suggestion would be to cut VAT alltogether so we can save our souls from endless tax cut jungle. But that's not going to happen, because VAT is effectively barrier against foreign goods, important source of government income and can't go progressive. As a result conservatives love it to death.

The reason governments like it is because it is hard to avoid.

If cryptocurrency gets big, it's the first tax everybody avoids.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#268
IMO the only reason we do not have a culture of repairing is because we subsidize the waste processing stream and thus we only see lower upfront costs.

If I had to pay an extra $25 disposal fee upfront on a microwave, maybe I'd be incentivized to buy a quality item or maybe repair it in the first place.

As well, repairing/reusing is a function of average cost of a worker. If a repair man has a fully loaded cost of $50 an hour, then you're not going to see many repairs happen. If its $5 an hour then you might see more. Expensive labor leads to all kinds of seemingly insane behavior.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#269

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

I think you're right about this, but I wonder how feasible this is in a country like Sweden where most of the complicated manufactured goods that break easily are probably produced elsewhere and the population is not big enough for foreign manufacturers to be bothered investing the requisite capital to redesign their products. It might be effective to do this kind of a thing at a European level, where the size of the…

Sony still have offices there after the merger of their and Ericsson's mobile handset divisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Mobile

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#270
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the…

It isn't always so simple. Money and lifestyle often plays a role in what folks can and can't do. >... even with the availability of all the tools needed. This is often a first problem, actually. I've had a few times in my life where I've been completely without handtools. Upon first moving out, for example, upon moving out again: After splitting with my ex, and moving to to a new country. So if I would sit here and…

> If this doesn't fix the machine, can I afford to try again with a another part? (this last statement is often a sore point when folks are fixing their own vehicles).

Spot on! I can't even remember how many times I had to bike or bum a ride to a parts store midway through a repair.

Post reply on HN