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Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

latimes.com

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Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#71
post #64

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward. When the automobile was invented think of all the farriers and hay people that went out of business and had to move on. Think about the milkman or the guy that used to put ice in the back of your ice-chest out in the back yard. When we eventually move off coal, think of all the millions of people involved…

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward.

It shouldn't be a matter of holding on to the jobs, it should be about helping people transition to new jobs.

The industrial revolution was amazing and wonderful, but for the people who get caught under the wheels, who didn't know how to adapt, it was nothing but pain.

Here is a poem to illustrate what I mean: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detai...

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#72
post #64

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward. When the automobile was invented think of all the farriers and hay people that went out of business and had to move on. Think about the milkman or the guy that used to put ice in the back of your ice-chest out in the back yard. When we eventually move off coal, think of all the millions of people involved…

While you are correct, I think the distinguishing difference here is the rate of change. Automobiles became commercially viable and then common years apart and in some areas decades. The industry - and underlying jobs, infrastructure, etc - had time to adapt and change.

For self-driving vehicles, I suspect the window of time between "commercially viable" and "common" is a few years, ten if we want to be pessimistic.

So will society (jobs, infrastructure, etc) adjust quickly enough to absorb this change without major pain?

I don't know but since we know it's going to happen, I think we should push the conversation towards "what's next" and figure out how to help people get there instead of just lamenting the loss or complaining about the lament.

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#73
post #64

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward. When the automobile was invented think of all the farriers and hay people that went out of business and had to move on. Think about the milkman or the guy that used to put ice in the back of your ice-chest out in the back yard. When we eventually move off coal, think of all the millions of people involved…

The US has ~120,000 people employed at fossil fuel generation plants and about 65,000 employed in the coal mining industry.

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=19271

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining_in_the_United_Stat...

I guess lots of the 120,000 work at smaller gas plants.

There's ~1.6 million people directly employed as truck drivers.

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#74
post #64

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward. When the automobile was invented think of all the farriers and hay people that went out of business and had to move on. Think about the milkman or the guy that used to put ice in the back of your ice-chest out in the back yard. When we eventually move off coal, think of all the millions of people involved…

Unfortunately, loss of jobs in American doesn't come with free “adapt, retrain” like it does in many European countries. It's still very third-world in terms of that. If you lose your job, and haven't saved much (and many Americans don't, because of all the advertising that encourages overconsumption), you'll be out on the street or in a homeless shelter if you are unable to pay for your house.

If a 35-year old coal miner has bought a house with a middle-class income and suddenly gets laid off, he could be in that shelter within a year. That is why people are so concerned with holding on to jobs.

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#75
post #64

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward. When the automobile was invented think of all the farriers and hay people that went out of business and had to move on. Think about the milkman or the guy that used to put ice in the back of your ice-chest out in the back yard. When we eventually move off coal, think of all the millions of people involved…

You're dumbfounded that people would be interested in their own survival?

Automation eventually leads to a rise in productivity and living standards for future generations. The typical truck driver won't get to reap any of the benefits from the transition.

Sympathy for the Luddites[1] lays out a convincing argument for what actually happens when these jobs disappear.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/opinion/krugman-sympathy-f...

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#76
post #64

I'm continually dumbfounded by how Americans are so concerned with holding onto jobs, rather than moving forward. When the automobile was invented think of all the farriers and hay people that went out of business and had to move on. Think about the milkman or the guy that used to put ice in the back of your ice-chest out in the back yard. When we eventually move off coal, think of all the millions of people involved…

Move on, adapt, re-train.

I used to make this argument, but I don't really agree with it anymore. In the past, there was significantly more on-the-job training and even people with a high school education could get fairly good jobs with the possibility of meaningful career advancement. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, and it seems like most of the jobs that are lost due to free trade and automation result in workers that, at best, have primarily service jobs available to them that offer little possibility for advancement. Economists predicted that those displaced workers would increase their educational level and retrain, but in practice that did not happen either because people are unable or unwilling. At least part of this must be because in the past, on-the-job training was much more common than today.

See this article in the Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21695855-america...

Here are some relevant paragraphs: Until recently, most economists assumed that displaced workers could find new work relatively easily. After all, in June 2007, on the eve of the financial crisis, unemployment was 4.6%—lower than it was before the recession of the early 1990s. Between 2000 and 2007 Americans left 5m jobs a month and started 5.1m new ones. A million or so jobs lost to trade with China over more than a decade seems tiny by comparison.

But many workers displaced by Chinese imports did not simply find another job. Mr Autor and his colleagues have shown that, at local level, employment falls at least one-for-one with jobs lost to trade, and that displaced workers are unlikely to move to seek new work. The lowest-skilled who do find new jobs tend to move to similar, and thus similarly vulnerable, employment. One reason for this immobility could be that the economy is now an unwelcoming place for jobseekers without a university degree. The housing collapse of the late 2000s, which left many Americans trapped in negative equity, may have made things worse. This new strain of research has lent support to the claim of Dani Rodrik, a globalisation sceptic, that “If you are of low skill, have little education, and are not very mobile, international trade has been bad news for you pretty much throughout your entire life.”

While that article is focused on trade, automation should have a similar impact on the kinds of jobs displaced, e.g., level of education and skill required.

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of supply and demand and competition. If companies could squeeze more money out of customers why wouldn't they just do so right now by raising prices?

Well, if truck driving were automated, they certainly wouldn't lower then. Personally, I imagine a lot of companies will use that extra money to buy out, take over, or otherwise eliminate their competition. I doubt the consumer will win.

If transport companies don't lower prices, won't new companies enter the market and undercut the incumbents?

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#78

sounds like the self-driving trucks would need to be protected by security teams, otherwise they may be susceptible to out of work pirates.

You can estimate the impact.

Take the fraction of truck drivers that will become pirates

Multiply by the number of trucks that an average pirate can hijack, deliver the merchandise to a reseller of stolen goods, get paid, and launder the money before getting caught.

Divide by how many shipments a truck driver currently makes per year.

And that's an estimate of the fraction of merchandise that will be pirated.

I suspect the answer is no more than 1%, in which case it is absorbable along with other kinds of lossage.

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#79
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumption that everything will be cheaper seems a bit disingenuous, because why would these companies want to automate themselves so badly if they weren't going to keep most of the savings as profit? Even if prices were lowered by a few percent for some goods thanks to cheaper shipping, that's little help when you have no source of income. This will only exacerbate the demand-limited economic slump we're curren…

Right, the price of anything is what people are willing to pay , there is minimal correlation with production costs. If the inputs get cheaper profits will go up but the consumer will pay the same. Do we see massive price drops whenever any company outsources their call centre to India? Nope, the price stays the same and the execs pocket the difference in bonuses.

Right, the price of anything is what people are willing to pay, there is minimal correlation with production costs.

This only works if the seller has monopoly pricing power. Otherwise gas would be $5/gallon all the time.

Do we see massive price drops whenever any company outsources their call centre to India?

Massive, no, but the prices of most things other than housing, health care, and education have in fact been dropping.

Re: Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-collar jobs

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like featherbedding. Putting pointless people in the middle just to skim money from the process. Who benefits? Nobody but them. Reminds me of how the railroads had to pay into the pension fund for Firemen, long after steam engines were dead and gone. Just because.

Is no more fetherbedding than any other regulated profession (doctors, layers) who get to themselves decide who is a member in good standing.

Why is that a model to aspire to? It makes me angry when I have to pay a doctor $100 for something stupid and trivial like a prescription for a vaccine.
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