Swiss endorse new surveillance powers • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#21

Post by Pica_soO » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

Sorry, the problem is that this is the heart of representational democratic systems. You don't need to be a expert, you trust blindly. To call for education here is to demand for the people to install linux as there government. It is not going to happen, because the strong point of this agreement is the fact that no citizen has to be a expert. The idea, to reeducate anyone into a expert on secret services, measurements and counter-measures is .. interesting.

Im actually by now for a randomly selected secret service jury. People who get selected by the dice, have the right to move freely within the secret service and the right to watch anything going on anytime. If the outside find something disagreeable, it can present the jury a case and the jury will investigate (if necessary) and judge. It is replaced after a term.

Clearly governments bureaucrats ascending to power, can not be entrusted to control the most powerful tool they reach this way.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#22

Post by tobltobs » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #7

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

Please correct me if I wrong, but it seems to me from the description in the OP that this is nothing compared to mass surveillance in other countries. Notably, it requires a court authorization to put somebody under surveillance, which is something that even Snowden would approve if I recall correctly.

They would be allowed to intercept any kind of traffic without any court authorization as long as at least one source is coming from a foreign country. Which will be technically true for nearly all IP based communication in Switzerland.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#23

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

planetjones wrote: post #13

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

I also live and work in Zurich in a 'techie' job and almost everyone is happy with the new surveillance laws and powers. They are sensible, needed and have the correct number of safeguards. Why do you think they go too far?

Because some people are either blind or severely minimise existing threats, often while maximising other threats

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#24

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 4:48 PM UTC

benevol wrote: post #4

It's Fear-of-Terror-Makes-People-Stupid time [0] all over again. Two thirds of the population approve this. [0] http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/06/fear-of-terror-makes-...

While exaggerated responses are not good, ignoring it is not beneficial and will only result in more extreme responses later on.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#25

Post by tobltobs » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 4:50 PM UTC

planetjones wrote: post #13

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

I also live and work in Zurich in a 'techie' job and almost everyone is happy with the new surveillance laws and powers. They are sensible, needed and have the correct number of safeguards. Why do you think they go too far?

1.) There have been "safeguards" also at the time of the "Vichen" affair.

2.) The swiss "intelligence service" isn't famous for his intelligence. They should first do their homework on counterintelligence before anything else. Else they will just be used as a Proxy for foreign intelligence services.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#26

Post by sebgr » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 4:50 PM UTC

aub3bhat wrote: post #20

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

Or maybe they do and are okay with the trade offs. Consider that Switzerland requires voting on each citizenship application. Different countries and cultures have different set of norms. E.g. I can see lots of East and South Asian countries adopting a similar approach.

Only some cantons require voting on citizenship, the others have a more formal process.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#27

Post by sgift » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #17

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

"I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems." FWIW: This is literally the retort everyone has to anything they disagree with that gets approved. It's unrelated to surveillance. People always assume "if only people knew what i knew, they would have agreed with me". This is a really bad assumption. In fact, most of the time, i'd argue exactly the opposite: People underst…

It probably boils down to your trust in people. Given many discussions with many people on many topics I tend to stay on the opposite side. Most peoples understanding is about as deep as the most popular news magazines headline, which is not enough for me to consider that they "understood fine, they just disagree" - they understood fine what they've bothered to inform themselves about. So, basically nothing.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#28

Post by mtgx » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #17

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

"I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems." FWIW: This is literally the retort everyone has to anything they disagree with that gets approved. It's unrelated to surveillance. People always assume "if only people knew what i knew, they would have agreed with me". This is a really bad assumption. In fact, most of the time, i'd argue exactly the opposite: People underst…

> FWIW: This is literally the retort everyone has to anything they disagree with that gets approved.

Probably because it's true in most cases. Most people don't have a deep understanding of even a single issue, let alone multiple.

This could have very well been another "Brexit-like" vote in Switzerland, where people were just scaremongered into voting for the law without understanding all of the implications.

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#29

Post by mtgx » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

The era of "Swiss privacy" is now officially over. Germany seems to be the last remaining beacon of hope (mainly thanks to its Constitution, its Courts, and a slightly higher privacy vigilance from the German population, not because its government is any better than the rest).

Re: Swiss endorse new surveillance powers

#30

Post by rasur » Sun, Sep 25, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #21

rasur wrote: post #5

I think it really boils down to not enough people understanding the issues and the problems. I had seen (once or twice) people out on the streets campaigning against it to raise awareness on the weekends, but honestly, it was not enough. Only the hard-core techies understood (or appeared to understand) the issue - at least around the area of Zürich where I work I can't think of anyone who thought it was a good idea.…

Sorry, the problem is that this is the heart of representational democratic systems. You don't need to be a expert, you trust blindly. To call for education here is to demand for the people to install linux as there government. It is not going to happen, because the strong point of this agreement is the fact that no citizen has to be a expert. The idea, to reeducate anyone into a expert on secret services, measuremen…

Swiss Democracy is Direct Democracy, not Representative Democracy. EDIT: Meaning similar but not the same, and the power ultimately rests with the people to make the decisions, thus providing some requirement for them to understand the issues, and not just leave it up to their representatives.

It's a subtle difference.