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Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#61

Post by blackflame7000 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11

Careful. Start talking about the US defeating Germany and the Russians will have something to say. There is good reason why in the US it is called WWII and in Russia "The Great Patriotic War". The walk from Moscow to Berlin was much longer than from France.

It's not so much the Americans defeating the Germans that makes me proud, but rather the immense technical achievement that was done in such little time out of necessity. It is a perfect example of the American ingenuitive ideal. It's shouldn't be taken as a slight to other nations but rather as admiration for the accomplishments of those who came before me

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#62

Post by pinaceae »

hga wrote: post #43
pinaceae wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many US civilians were killed by Japanese troops total vs. how many innocent women, kids, elderly, artists were firebombed and nuked by the US in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? This comic book version of history present in the US is disgusting. The US could have nuked a 100% military installation. The US could have detonated the nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population. No. The US decided to nuk…

How many people were prematurely dying every month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere after we took back the Philippines? The latest, best estimate I've seen, in the excellent book Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 ( https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation-Downfall-1945-1947... ) was 400,000, up from the 250,000 I'd picked up somewhere I can't remember. It had many int…

you don't understand my point:

the US is the only country on earth that ever dropped nuclear weapons on civilians. US generals decided to kill civilians, in retaliation, to achieve pure terror.

the US lost 3.5k civilians on 9/11 and started 2 wars for it.

but all this mil-porn floats around, civilian armchair heroes debate death and destruction with zero empathy or connection to reality.

just utterly inhuman.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#63

Post by dragonius »

Cyph0n wrote: post #53
67726e wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. The projected losses were so insanely higher for ALL sides it's just stupid to act as though the bombings were not the best options available. I consume every bit of WWII history I can get my hands on, but your suggestion is nothing but revisionist. Please stop spreading this insane notion.

I don't claim to be well-versed on WWII history, but that's my opinion until I hear a convincing argument as to why using a nuclear bomb was necessary . Just saying it was the "best option" isn't too convincing imo. There were many prominent scientists who advised against using it, so it wasn't a unanimous decision as you make it out to be. > The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. Are you considering the aft…

Wikipedia says the atomic bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki killed 129,000–246,000+ (in a single week). The bombings of Tokyo killed 75,000–200,000 (over 3 years). The debate over whether more lives would have been lost if the bombs had not been dropped is entirely hypothetical and moreover has been the subject of debate amongst historians since the end of WWII, notwithstanding the confident pronouncements of authoritative-sounding posters on hackernews who don't appear to be able to accurately compare the relative death tolls of the two tragedies.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#64

Post by Cyph0n »

dragonius wrote: post #63
Cyph0n wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't claim to be well-versed on WWII history, but that's my opinion until I hear a convincing argument as to why using a nuclear bomb was necessary . Just saying it was the "best option" isn't too convincing imo. There were many prominent scientists who advised against using it, so it wasn't a unanimous decision as you make it out to be. > The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. Are you considering the aft…

Wikipedia says the atomic bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki killed 129,000–246,000+ (in a single week). The bombings of Tokyo killed 75,000–200,000 (over 3 years). The debate over whether more lives would have been lost if the bombs had not been dropped is entirely hypothetical and moreover has been the subject of debate amongst historians since the end of WWII, notwithstanding the confident pronouncements of authorit…

> the confident pronouncements of authoritative-sounding posters on hackernews who don't appear to be able to accurately compare the relative death tolls of the two tragedies.

Right? One thread a JS expert, the next thread an authority on WWII. Welcome to HN :P

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#65

Post by sandworm101 »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #61
sandworm101 wrote: post #11

Careful. Start talking about the US defeating Germany and the Russians will have something to say. There is good reason why in the US it is called WWII and in Russia "The Great Patriotic War". The walk from Moscow to Berlin was much longer than from France.

It's not so much the Americans defeating the Germans that makes me proud, but rather the immense technical achievement that was done in such little time out of necessity. It is a perfect example of the American ingenuitive ideal. It's shouldn't be taken as a slight to other nations but rather as admiration for the accomplishments of those who came before me

But don't forget that Manhattan was a three-country effort. Don't forget where the uranium came from, or the number of scientists brought in from all over the allied nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#66

Post by gumby »

dkural wrote: post #44
Spooky23 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the difference between utter destruction of the enemy vs an unconditional surrender with conditions. The US was put in a shitty position by the opportunistic Soviet intervention. So we ended up with a curbed emperor, an American who fancied himself an emperor, and whitewash. Remember that the Republic of China was still a thing, and the political implications of taking a relative soft approach to Japanese atro…

The Soviet invasion was not "opportunistic" at all, if you mean by that eating a meal someone else has prepared. The USSR had a far bigger role in defeating Nazism than the Allies sans Soviets.

I think Spooky23 meant the entry of the Soviet Union into the pacific war on August 9 1945. Stalin had promised (At Potsdam or Tehran I don't remember) to enter the war but had hung back -- don't blame him; the war in Europe was massive enough, with the Soviets already doing the majority of the Allied fighting.

Just as the western Allies figured why not let the Soviets take the hit, Stalin had nothing to lose by letting UK+ANZUS wear themselves out in the Pacific.

But once it was clear how the wind was blowing, why not jump in?

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#67

Post by dang »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11

Careful. Start talking about the US defeating Germany and the Russians will have something to say. There is good reason why in the US it is called WWII and in Russia "The Great Patriotic War". The walk from Moscow to Berlin was much longer than from France.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568512 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#68

Post by angersock »

pinaceae wrote: post #62
hga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people were prematurely dying every month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere after we took back the Philippines? The latest, best estimate I've seen, in the excellent book Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 ( https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation-Downfall-1945-1947... ) was 400,000, up from the 250,000 I'd picked up somewhere I can't remember. It had many int…

you don't understand my point: the US is the only country on earth that ever dropped nuclear weapons on civilians. US generals decided to kill civilians, in retaliation, to achieve pure terror. the US lost 3.5k civilians on 9/11 and started 2 wars for it. but all this mil-porn floats around, civilian armchair heroes debate death and destruction with zero empathy or connection to reality. just utterly inhuman.

And it worked, now didn't it? History is written by the victors.

Anyways, all sides in WWII that were able to bombed the crap out of civilian centers when they were given the chance to do so. That's what total war means.

If any other nation had had nukes, you can bet your ass they would've used them--because in such a war you have no choice other than full mobilization of your warmaking abilities or surrender.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#69

Post by Noseshine »

gumby wrote: post #66
dkural wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet invasion was not "opportunistic" at all, if you mean by that eating a meal someone else has prepared. The USSR had a far bigger role in defeating Nazism than the Allies sans Soviets.

I think Spooky23 meant the entry of the Soviet Union into the pacific war on August 9 1945. Stalin had promised (At Potsdam or Tehran I don't remember) to enter the war but had hung back -- don't blame him; the war in Europe was massive enough, with the Soviets already doing the majority of the Allied fighting. Just as the western Allies figured why not let the Soviets take the hit, Stalin had nothing to lose by lett…

    > But once it was clear how the wind was blowing, why not jump in?
Or: Once the war in the West was over, which required all available Russian resources, Stalin immediately redeployed to the Far East. Within just a few weeks of ending the war in Europe Russians managed to go on the offensive in the East. That is an impressive feat, given the vast distances.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#70

Post by statictype »

tptacek wrote: post #55
Cyph0n wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't claim to be well-versed on WWII history, but that's my opinion until I hear a convincing argument as to why using a nuclear bomb was necessary . Just saying it was the "best option" isn't too convincing imo. There were many prominent scientists who advised against using it, so it wasn't a unanimous decision as you make it out to be. > The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. Are you considering the aft…

Yes, the casualty figures for the bombs include radiation. From what I can tell, it is difficult to make an argument against the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki based on the civilian toll. The pacification of Japan without the bomb would seemingly have led to far more civilian deaths.

>The pacification of Japan without the bomb would seemingly have led to far more civilian deaths.

Just curious on how you could have arrived at this conclusion?

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