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Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#41

Post by sandworm101 »

douche wrote: post #28
sandworm101 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction brought by the two nukes actually pales in comparison to the firebombing. Some have argued that, given the energies required to build the bombs, far more death would have occurred had those resources been put towards greater firebombing. In that context it is difficult to give special legal treatment to the nukes.

For true horror, continue the conventional bombing, and put an iron blockade around the Home Islands for another year and cut off all shipping. Millions would have starved. US submarines were already very nearly doing to Japan what Germany's U-boats attempted to do to Britain by the late stages of the war.

Agreed. It is in victory where honor matters most. In naval circles there is a principal that a ship be sunk, not punished. (Shots not below the waterline meant to kill the crew rather than sink the ship and allow the crew to abandon.) Some say Bismark was punished. Walling off Japan and bombing it conventionally would have been punishment. Once the enemy is down, the victor has a duty to construct an endgame.

But imho the bombs are still overplayed as war-enders. I think the prospect of invasion and occupation by Russian forces had at least as much of an impact on the decision.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#42

Post by rhino369 »

jrockway wrote: post #7
chillacy wrote: post #5

> HEISENBERG replied that had they produced and dropped such a bomb they would certainly have been executed as War Criminals having made the "most devilish thing imaginable" Heh. There's a little piece of truth to how war crimes are prosecuted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

They would have done the same thing to us. We just beat them to it. Despite all the other moralizing, I'm 100% sure of that fact.

Hard to get angry that someone isn't playing fair when you would have done the same.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#43

Post by hga »

pinaceae wrote: post #20
67726e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

How many US civilians were killed by Japanese troops total vs. how many innocent women, kids, elderly, artists were firebombed and nuked by the US in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? This comic book version of history present in the US is disgusting. The US could have nuked a 100% military installation. The US could have detonated the nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population. No. The US decided to nuk…

How many people were prematurely dying every month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere after we took back the Philippines? The latest, best estimate I've seen, in the excellent book Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 (https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation-Downfall-1945-1947...) was 400,000, up from the 250,000 I'd picked up somewhere I can't remember.

It had many interesting revelations, including the single thing which had a higher priority than the Manhattan Project: the building of a super-Mullberry for Operation Coronet, the invasion of the Kanto Plain on main island of Honshu, where Tokyo and much else was located.

And if you study the endgame on the Japanese side, it's really not likely nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population would have worked, for one thing, they had no say in the running of the country. There also wasn't generally clean separations between military installations and civilian areas, especially since Japan is so crowded.

No, one of the clear factors was their leadership realizing we'd advanced to the point where a single plane could destroy a city, instead of requiring near Maximum Efforts with hundreds of them.

And of course, the bottom line is that these bombings worked. All else is speculation.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#44

Post by dkural »

Spooky23 wrote: post #37
Cyph0n wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at Unit 731 vs. the Nazi human experimentation program during WWII. In exchange for the data gathered through 731's history, the U.S. turned a blind eye. The Nazis however were tried by U.S. military courts for conducting such experiments. Hypocrisy at its finest. Unit 731: "Instead of being tried for war crimes, the researchers involved in Unit 731 were secretly given immunity by the U.S. in exchange for…

That's the difference between utter destruction of the enemy vs an unconditional surrender with conditions. The US was put in a shitty position by the opportunistic Soviet intervention. So we ended up with a curbed emperor, an American who fancied himself an emperor, and whitewash. Remember that the Republic of China was still a thing, and the political implications of taking a relative soft approach to Japanese atro…

The Soviet invasion was not "opportunistic" at all, if you mean by that eating a meal someone else has prepared. The USSR had a far bigger role in defeating Nazism than the Allies sans Soviets.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#45

Post by yongjik »

jrockway wrote: post #7
chillacy wrote: post #5

> HEISENBERG replied that had they produced and dropped such a bomb they would certainly have been executed as War Criminals having made the "most devilish thing imaginable" Heh. There's a little piece of truth to how war crimes are prosecuted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

They got to keep their emperor. For all I know, higher powers in Japan at that time would have preferred that to an alternate universe with no nukes and the emperor getting executed.

Of course, those killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki might feel differently, but when do we ever ask for people's feelings?

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#46

Post by mirekrusin »

pinaceae wrote: post #20
67726e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

How many US civilians were killed by Japanese troops total vs. how many innocent women, kids, elderly, artists were firebombed and nuked by the US in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? This comic book version of history present in the US is disgusting. The US could have nuked a 100% military installation. The US could have detonated the nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population. No. The US decided to nuk…

Apparently what was shocking with nuking "TWO cities" was that it was _just_ two bombs and not more.

They were bombed 3 days apart.

Nagasaki was unfortunate. It was suppose to be Kokura. But the weather was shit, so they picked 2nd best from the list - Nagasaki.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#47

Post by M_Grey »

wtbob wrote: post #31
M_Grey wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That too. The Japanese did a much better job of destroying evidence of such crimes, while the Germans mostly meticulously documented them, and they were too busy running like hell from the Soviets to destroy them all, once they saw what was in store for them.

And also the Germans surrendered 8 May, while the Japanese surrendered 14 August. Over the course of that quarter it had become more and more apparent that WWII wasn't going to end soon (it didn't, in fact, end until 15 March 1991), and that the Soviets were going to be the next enemy, and that we'd need to preserve Germany and Japan in some form (rather than adhering to the earlier Morgenthau Plan, which would have…

It was, and in many ways still is, remarkable that Japan and the US have managed to get along so well when you consider those desperate starting points. In the end, I think it's fair to say that the choices made in regards to holding some individuals accountable for their crimes at the expense of the broader reconstruction effort was the right one. Not easy to make at the time though, I would imagine.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#48

Post by 67726e »

Cyph0n wrote: post #12
67726e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be in my opinion. Please think twice and look at the aftermath and devastation that resulted from using nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Both sides were at fault, but to say that the U.S. was objectively right is an oversimplification.

The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. The projected losses were so insanely higher for ALL sides it's just stupid to act as though the bombings were not the best options available. I consume every bit of WWII history I can get my hands on, but your suggestion is nothing but revisionist. Please stop spreading this insane notion.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#49

Post by Spooky23 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #12
67726e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be in my opinion. Please think twice and look at the aftermath and devastation that resulted from using nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Both sides were at fault, but to say that the U.S. was objectively right is an oversimplification.

It's total war. That's what happens.

The atomic bomb was horrific in its effect, but it was no different that the industrial scale bombardment implemented throughout the war.

Even a cursory study of this subject going back to the manipulations in China in the 1930s makes it pretty clear that the US/Allied cause was righteous.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#50

Post by douche »

mirekrusin wrote: post #46
pinaceae wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many US civilians were killed by Japanese troops total vs. how many innocent women, kids, elderly, artists were firebombed and nuked by the US in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? This comic book version of history present in the US is disgusting. The US could have nuked a 100% military installation. The US could have detonated the nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population. No. The US decided to nuk…

Apparently what was shocking with nuking "TWO cities" was that it was _just_ two bombs and not more. They were bombed 3 days apart. Nagasaki was unfortunate. It was suppose to be Kokura. But the weather was shit, so they picked 2nd best from the list - Nagasaki.

There were only two bombs ready, and they were just barely beyond prototypes, if I recall correctly.
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