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Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#21

Post by sandworm101 »

jrockway wrote: post #7
chillacy wrote: post #5

> HEISENBERG replied that had they produced and dropped such a bomb they would certainly have been executed as War Criminals having made the "most devilish thing imaginable" Heh. There's a little piece of truth to how war crimes are prosecuted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

The destruction brought by the two nukes actually pales in comparison to the firebombing. Some have argued that, given the energies required to build the bombs, far more death would have occurred had those resources been put towards greater firebombing. In that context it is difficult to give special legal treatment to the nukes.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#22

Post by M_Grey »

Cyph0n wrote: post #18
M_Grey wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did that with plenty of Nazis too... hence NASA. 'I Aim For The Stars'..."(But Sometimes I Hit London)"

True, but one was secret (Unit 731) and the other wasn't if I recall correctly.

That too. The Japanese did a much better job of destroying evidence of such crimes, while the Germans mostly meticulously documented them, and they were too busy running like hell from the Soviets to destroy them all, once they saw what was in store for them.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#23

Post by dclowd9901 »

jrockway wrote: post #7
chillacy wrote: post #5

> HEISENBERG replied that had they produced and dropped such a bomb they would certainly have been executed as War Criminals having made the "most devilish thing imaginable" Heh. There's a little piece of truth to how war crimes are prosecuted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

They don't all. There's a more contemporary movement (I believe) that is rejecting the idea that their country "had it coming" or are apologetic about Japan's role during the war.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#24

Post by tptacek »

Cyph0n wrote: post #12
67726e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be in my opinion. Please think twice and look at the aftermath and devastation that resulted from using nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Both sides were at fault, but to say that the U.S. was objectively right is an oversimplification.

The invasion of Okinawa killed something like 140,000 civilians, in addition to the horrific military casualties. That's just Okinawa.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#25

Post by tptacek »

zerooneinfinity wrote: post #15

Some of them seemed relieved the war was going to be over. It was also interesting they weren't that interested in winning. HEISENBERG: One can't say that. One could equally well say "That's the quickest way of ending the war.” HAHN: That's what consoles me WEIZSÄCKER: I believe the reason we didn't do it was because all the physicists didn't want to do it, on principle. If we had all wanted Germany to win the war we…

Another point made repeatedly in the transcript is the worry that if they'd gotten anywhere close to a nuclear weapon, British assassins would have killed them.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#26

Post by CapitalistCartr »

jrockway wrote: post #7
chillacy wrote: post #5

> HEISENBERG replied that had they produced and dropped such a bomb they would certainly have been executed as War Criminals having made the "most devilish thing imaginable" Heh. There's a little piece of truth to how war crimes are prosecuted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

We did more damage to Tokyo than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki using the firebombing technique we developed over Germany. Japan killed more people in Nanking than either bomb. Both sides fought massive battles on land and sea. My father was in the Second Marines. The War Dept. issued everyone wills to fill out and put uppermost in their footlockers. Their commanders told them bluntly they wouldn't be coming back from this one. This after Tarawa, Saipan, Tinian, Okinawa. Of course, we all know now that invasion never happened. But if it had, Japanese losses were projected at the time to be maybe a million. Even Japan knows things could have been better, but almost certainly would have been worse.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#27

Post by kmonad »

> WEIZSÄCKER: One can say it might have been a much greater tragedy for the world if Germany had had the uranium bomb. Just imagine, if we had destroyed LONDON with uranium bombs it would not have ended the war, and when the war did end, it is still doubtful whether it would have been a good thing

I believe this should be "...and if it did end the war, it is still doubtful..."?

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#28

Post by douche »

sandworm101 wrote: post #21
jrockway wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

The destruction brought by the two nukes actually pales in comparison to the firebombing. Some have argued that, given the energies required to build the bombs, far more death would have occurred had those resources been put towards greater firebombing. In that context it is difficult to give special legal treatment to the nukes.

For true horror, continue the conventional bombing, and put an iron blockade around the Home Islands for another year and cut off all shipping. Millions would have starved.

US submarines were already very nearly doing to Japan what Germany's U-boats attempted to do to Britain by the late stages of the war.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#29

Post by Animats »

The Farm Hall transcripts are well known. There's much more of this, including where they discuss how the Americans might have done it.[1] Hahn says to Heisenberg: "If the Americans have the uranium bomb you're all second-raters. Poor old Heisenberg".

Heisenberg had made a big miscalculation. He thought it would take 2 tons of enriched uranium to make a bomb. In fact, it's about 52Kg for a dumb bomb, and and maybe 5Kg with a good design. Oops.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=_qVgeP_UGqsC&pg=PA64&lpg=P...

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#30

Post by meowface »

zerooneinfinity wrote: post #15

Some of them seemed relieved the war was going to be over. It was also interesting they weren't that interested in winning. HEISENBERG: One can't say that. One could equally well say "That's the quickest way of ending the war.” HAHN: That's what consoles me WEIZSÄCKER: I believe the reason we didn't do it was because all the physicists didn't want to do it, on principle. If we had all wanted Germany to win the war we…

I'm skeptical that very many of them shared that view. And in fact, Hahn's immediate reply:

HAHN: I don't believe that but I am thankful we didn't succeed.

Hahn sounds fairly authoritative throughout this transcript, so I'm more inclined to believe him.

And later:

BAGGE: I think it is absurd for WEIZSÄCKER to say he did not want the thing to succeed. That may be so in his case, but not for all of us.

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