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How does Google know where I am?

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Re: How does Google know where I am?

#101

Post by binoct »

dogma1138 wrote: post #91
GrumpyYoungMan wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research has been done before on using the gyro + accelerometer on a smartphone as an IMU (inertial measurement unit) to augment positioning; see for example: http://gpsworld.com/showing-smartphones-the-way-inside/ However the last I heard, powering the gyro + accelerometer constantly was a prohibitive drain on the battery and the relatively low grade sensors used in smartphones made the positional drift rate high en…

Google has been supporting this since API version 10, this is the default (and only) location provider if you are using the Google Play Services API. https://youtu.be/Bte_GHuxUGc?t=400 Then skip https://youtu.be/Bte_GHuxUGc?t=700 to for the deep dive :) You can still do location "manually" by either using GPS or sensor data using the Android framework.

Thanks for those links - I think they frame the progress on localization really nicely. They also make clear the improvements are based on fusion of GPS + wifi + IMU/sensors. Adding IMu data to the existing mix is a clear win, but there's a major difference between that and using the IMU for dead reckoning alone. I think that's worth clarifying since the thread started out talking about localization with wifi disabled (although disabled clearly doesn't quite mean what you think it might in this context.)

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#102

Post by khedoros »

jasonkostempski wrote: post #44
tuxracer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WiFi is never completely off until you disable "Scanning always available" https://i.stack.imgur.com/wcQkc.png

I don't have that option under "Advanced Wi-Fi" but under Settings -> Location -> Scanning I have "Wi-Fi Scanning Improve location by allowing system apps and services to detect Wi-Fi networks at any time". Is that the same thing? Nexus 5X, Android 7.0

Ditto, Nexus 5, Android 6.0.1. That's how I interpreted it: as a relocation and rewording of a setting.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#103

Post by newman314 »

grkvlt wrote: post #81
mikestew wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have a guess at the answer to another question: "is it okay for a private company to create a geodatabase of SSID strings that were freely and willingly broadcast via radio?" I think the answer is "yes". Ten, fifteen years ago, if there were an HN story about how I, ow…

Interesting point about `_nomap` which I wasn't aware of until now. See this page, under 'How do I opt out?' for details: https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/1725632?hl=en&visit_...

FWIW, Microsoft has a different string and yes, order matters IIRC.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#104

Post by rtkwe »

Gracana wrote: post #86

Wifi mapping is the method by which google has no idea where I am. My roommate moved across the country and moved in with me, and android thinks I'm at his old house whenever I connect to his wifi router, even with GPS enabled, and even having installed OpenWRT and changed the ssid of the router. It's pretty maddening.

It's because Google and other mapping companies use the BSSID (MAC) which doesn't change if you just change the SSID.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#105

Post by dogma1138 »

binoct wrote: post #101
dogma1138 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has been supporting this since API version 10, this is the default (and only) location provider if you are using the Google Play Services API. https://youtu.be/Bte_GHuxUGc?t=400 Then skip https://youtu.be/Bte_GHuxUGc?t=700 to for the deep dive :) You can still do location "manually" by either using GPS or sensor data using the Android framework.

Thanks for those links - I think they frame the progress on localization really nicely. They also make clear the improvements are based on fusion of GPS + wifi + IMU/sensors. Adding IMu data to the existing mix is a clear win, but there's a major difference between that and using the IMU for dead reckoning alone. I think that's worth clarifying since the thread started out talking about localization with wifi disable…

Oh no they don't use that alone, the amount of data they receive from the sensors and how it factors into everything also varies, if you got that impression it's my bad, I thought I was clear that when you enable the "location services" in Android it works all the time in the background regardless of what you have explicitly enabled or not they even state that when you turn it on. Pretty much the IMU data is used to prevent jumps, enable them to use better path predicting algorithms and to provide coverage in doors, if you don't want them tracking you disable the background location services, or well sadly don't take the phone with you.

P.S.

I'm pretty sure that iOS has the same thing, I also know that there are a few startups that want to push their own location provider service including sensor based tracking, I've played around with pathsense their location API was faster and considerably* more accurate than Google's https://pathsense.com

*As far as jitter goes, if you are talking about accuracy only to the point of "is jim at the juicebar on the corner of Main St. and 8th.?" they both work pretty much the same.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#106

Post by khedoros »

kuschku wrote: post #45
RKearney wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could create a faraday cage around your home to prevent your Wi-Fi signals from broadcasting outside your home. Otherwise I don't really see the issue with Google picking up signals from the street that people blast outside the extents of their homes.

So I can go around with a telezoom lens attached to a drone and photograph into every backyard, into every window, photograph people naked in the shower, children changing clothes on 21st floor thinking no one will look, etc – and publish that? Or maybe we as society do already have reasonable limits where "publicly available" is not equivalent to "publicly indexable".

Do you agree that there's a difference between collecting information from spherically-broadcast radio waves, to which most building walls are nearly transparent, and collecting other electromagnetic waves by putting a detector in a place where most people wouldn't assume it would exist? I'd argue that using opaque building materials to block emission of radiation in directions that one might an observer to be located shows a clear intent to establish a degree of privacy, and that someone flying a quadcopter into unusual places to take advantage of holes in peoples' reasonable expectations should be counted as a violation.

The types of radiation that you're comparing have two very important differences that influence people's expectations: First, they're blocked by very different sets of substances. Second, we've got a detector for one of those ranges built into our heads. I don't think it's reasonable to treat the two segments of the spectrum in the same way.

I expect vehicles to drive by my home. I expect people in those vehicles to have wifi devices that can see the broadcasts from my AP. I expect their devices to capture that data, possibly store it, and possibly transmit it to another device. I think it's unreasonable to assume that someone won't do that. I don't have a strong argument for how capturing and publicly indexing that information is harmful to me.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#107

Post by slim »

spyder wrote: post #76
slim wrote: post #55

If I understood correctly, android downloads nearby BSSIDs with corresponding Geoposition when internet connectivity is available, to use them when no connectivity is available. It should be possible to reconstruct google's BSSID database, right?

Yes and there are multiple databases available on the net: http://openbmap.org/ https://openwifi.su/?lang=en https://wigle.net/

I meant by hacking an android device

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#108

Post by KirinDave »

kuschku wrote: post #40
mikestew wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it okay for a private company to have detailed positioning data from inside of your office or home? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have a guess at the answer to another question: "is it okay for a private company to create a geodatabase of SSID strings that were freely and willingly broadcast via radio?" I think the answer is "yes". Ten, fifteen years ago, if there were an HN story about how I, ow…

So, then it’d also be legal if I stand near all schools, and photograph every child with a telezoom lens, follow each of them home, and then publish a website with photos of every child and where they live? If they don’t want to be seen, they can just stop broadcasting their face and wear a burqa, right? There is a huge difference between "publicly available in every case seperately" and "publicly indexable". EDIT: I…

I down voted and left a comment.

Appealing to child stalking as a way to emotionally charge your argument about radio reception is a disingenuous tactic for this conversation. What's more, people who actually work to promote and secure a safer environment for kids don't need people like you constantly exacerbating parental paranoia with a constant back chatter stranger danger.

Please refrain from emotionally manipulative rhetoric.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#109

Post by KirinDave »

kuschku wrote: post #85
grkvlt wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? I didn't give written approval for the Google StreetView car to photography the front of my house. If I was to create a database of photographs of buildings, taken from a public location and indexed by street address, I don't believe I have to get permission, and the product could be released publicly, or even sold to estate agents or similar. I used to have to give the phone company written (or st least exp…

Well, here Google had to run a media campaign and had to wait for people explicitly say yes or no to streetview, and the phone books have been opt-in for decades, since the market was liberalized and the Postmonopol ended with it being split into Deutsche Post DHL, Postbank and T-Online. At least for Germany Google could have stayed within of this single law. I don’t care if Google literally would enslave and rape US…

It was never illegal. It has always been legal. Debates were around asking if people could change the law to make it retroactively illegal.

Also: down voted again for emotionally manipulative and outright vile rhetoric. If Hacker News is a place for free speech and open debate, you casually turning every conversation you can to molestation, rape and violence is a violation of the social contract we all have to keep the tone civil, and hurts the goal of honest debate.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#110

Post by formula_ninguna »

pawadu wrote: post #5

This is not tower triangulation. Android searches for access points even when wifi is turned off. If anyone (with GPS enabled) uses that wifi with any google services the bssid will end up in their database. Also if the google car has been nearby it has recorded the presence of the wifi access point at that location [1]. Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning, alth…

Is there open source database of geo data for wifi hotspots? Or even closed source?
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