Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 257 posts

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#161

Post by dman »

windexh8er wrote: post #153
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #37

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they…

Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the i…

I would buy it in a heartbeat if they didnt insist on selling it with the numpad. I find it upsetting that it is virtually impossible to find a 15 inch laptop now that doesnt have the numpad (macbook pro and dell xps15 are the notable exceptions). Not having the spacebar centered and having the numeric keys off center is hard for me to adjust to.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#162

Post by Hydraulix989 »

farcical_tinpot wrote: post #160

Seeing a manufacturer use fake RAID, by default, on a single disk system, then unfathomably hardwiring this into the firmware so it can't be changed, then have a Lenovo rep actually admit the reason with the forum thread censored and then see this kind of defence is downright hilarious. Garrett should be condemning Lenovo for not making a perfectly configurable chipset feature....configurable and defending Linux and…

Yes, I wholly disagree with Garrett's attempts to redirect (or should I say, deflect) blame to Intel instead of Lenovo in this case. I've succinctly outlined my argument in most of my other posts in this thread.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#163

Post by seba_dos1 »

mjg59 wrote: post #112
captainmuon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux. Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes…

> They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. Or, alternatively, they removed a firmware setting that makes their hardware work less well and didn't think about Linux at all.

Removed the option from BIOS menu? Okay, stupid and annoying, but well, there's always EFI shell where you can edit variables by yourself...

Writing a piece of code that resets that one particular variable on each boot?

Sorry, but that's just nasty. There is no reason to do that if the goal is just to provide best experience on supported OS.

Although I agree that it's unlikely this was targetted specifically against GNU/Linux and other OSes. The most important thing would be that Windows 7, 8 and older won't boot anymore.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#164

Post by farcical_tinpot »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #90
intopieces wrote: post #54

FTA: "For a consumer device, why would you want to? The number of people buying these laptops to run anything other than Windows is miniscule." This is a really poor argument, and slightly disingenuous. Sometimes, people change their use for a device. Maybe they want to explore linux in the future, maybe they want to sell the laptop to someone who wants to use it for linux... That the blame is being possibly misdirec…

I think you are missing that the 'you' in that argument is Lenovo, not the consumer. Lenovo doesn't have an interest in how people's use of a device changes, unless it changes they up front purchasing decision. They do have a very strong interest in making sure that reviews and writeups don't say that the battery life is rubbish because the laptop has been switched to AHCI mode. As such, they have a strong incentive…

Correction, they only support on version of that OS - which is the point here.

To claim you're going to get better battery life with a fake RAID driver is also one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#165

Post by farcical_tinpot »

colemickens wrote: post #123

Oh it's funny to see the comments in this thread talking down about people on reddit when the misplaced outrage was just as loud here. In fact, I got buried here for pointing out that the claim was BS and unrelated to SecureBoot where at least Reddit took it thoughtfully and realized it was probably just a bullshit statement from a nobody rep that got blown out of proportion. Sorry to be that guy, but the elitism is…

It's not Secure Boot - yet. But this is what you're going to find - obsolescence depending on built-in hardware driver support. Not only are you not getting Linux installed on here but Windows 7, or any future version of Windows that does not have this driver built for it. You'll then have to throw the hardware away.

No, it wasn't a bullshit statement from a rep - it was a very clear statement from a rep, in black and white, that has not been retracted or clarified by Lenovo in any way. It's always funny when people choose not to believe verbatim statements and explanations put right in front of them.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#166

Post by farcical_tinpot »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #151
gautamdivgi wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the RAID setting can be the default. But they should provide the option to change if users want to install linux. Most linux users are BIOS friendly anyway.

Answering you and Hydraulix989: Because Internet forums. That's why. Search for "I can't install Windows 10 on my Lenovo Whatsyourface" and you'll get "Change this super secret setting to AHCI". And who's going to be doing those searches? Everyone, but specially people less computer savvy. The ones that know enough are here discussing Lenovo's decision. Again, just to clarify: I'm not trying to defend Lenovo. What th…

Every other chipset and motherboard in existence has had that option and it hasn't affected anyone adversely. There is no less of two evils. There isn't any evils here.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#167

Post by tracker1 »

windexh8er wrote: post #153
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #37

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they…

Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the i…

Usually when I plan on replacing the factory OS, I'll buy a replacement drive/ssd, and install directly on that, leaving the factory drive ready to be re-inserted on resale/return.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#168

Post by Hydraulix989 »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #159
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall?" How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected (ostensi…

> How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance). > I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. > Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected. True, but I'm sure they plan on make money out o…

"It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance)."

Except these are baseless claims that haven't been supported by any data yet; in fact, one user that posted on the Lenovo Community forums compared the "performance" of single-drive RAID (oxymoron) vs. AHCI for NVMe SSDs, and it's more or less the same.

"I mean flashing a non-supported BIOS :)"

Right, so do I -- currently, users have been attaching DIY chip clips and flashing a user-modded hacked BIOS themselves (much like modding Playstation game consoles to break the region locking back in the 90s).

Wouldn't it be better for these users to flash a Lenovo-supported BIOS instead?

I guess that's what factors into your "bottom line" calculations -- the overhead of uploading a 30 second fix from engineering.

EDIT: I really should have realized I have been getting trolled a bit sooner LOL

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#169

Post by farcical_tinpot »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #118
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then make the default setting RAID in the BIOS, don't proactively prevent (or should I say, restrict) that setting from being changed at all.

Why? Why should Lenovo let 99% of their users use sub-par drivers when they reinstall Windows?

Because providing that option doesn't give anyone sub-par drivers?

Also, the power saving stuff is bollocks. I never thought I would see the day when anyone would recommend using a bullshit fake RAID driver for power saving reasons.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#170

Post by tracker1 »

captainmuon wrote: post #86
raesene9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Lenovo provide a driver. Let's be honest, that's a commercial decision and entirely up to them if they want to support Linux installs on this hardware. Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform? If they advertise the hardware as supporting Linux then sure they absolutely should be required to support it. If they don't, then why should they have to support it?

It's the old distinction between "should do legally" and just "should do". Of course I don't believe they should be forced to do anything. But then I reserve the right to be indignant about this. And I also think it is a bit stupid: Lenovo had a reputation for having serious business Laptops. They cared about power-user customers who wanted to configure everything, and they had good Linux support. Either they messed…

It's kind of sad that the less tweaked options for laptops seem to be asus and acer... neither of which are my top choice, but seem to be much better than what's coming out of HP or Lenovo in the low-mid range.
Post reply on HN