Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#151

Post by NetStrikeForce » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

gautamdivgi wrote: post #143

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why should Lenovo let 99% of their users use sub-par drivers when they reinstall Windows?

I think the RAID setting can be the default. But they should provide the option to change if users want to install linux. Most linux users are BIOS friendly anyway.

Answering you and Hydraulix989:

Because Internet forums. That's why. Search for "I can't install Windows 10 on my Lenovo Whatsyourface" and you'll get "Change this super secret setting to AHCI". And who's going to be doing those searches? Everyone, but specially people less computer savvy. The ones that know enough are here discussing Lenovo's decision.

Again, just to clarify: I'm not trying to defend Lenovo. What they did was a bad business decision, but maybe it was the lesser of two evils. Maybe they should've kept Intel accountable on this one - but who can argue with the only serious CPU manufacturer for laptops?

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#152

Post by wpietri » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:29 PM UTC

rburhum wrote: post #67

What is crazy to me is that Lenovo is usually the brand that people recommend for Linux laptops. They are shooting themselves in the foot here. They may think that the number of people on Linux is too small, but I bet it is bigger than they think. It is just that there is no easy way to accurately census the amount of Linux users on their HW.

I was thinking that too. I write this on a Lenovo Thinkpad, and was just looking at buying a new machine from them. I've been using Thinkpads for more than decade. I guess if they want me to look elsewhere, I'm willing. Anybody have recommendations?

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#153

Post by windexh8er » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:32 PM UTC

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #37

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they…

Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the integrated Intel GPU from driving more than one display at a time was a deal breaker along with downright horrible performance.

I'm going down a new, yet unfortunately similar, path with Dell on a 5510. First unit I had would shut off if you picked it up. Dell decided to "upgrade" my purchase because they didn't have any more 5510 with FHD displays in stock. What I got back was a "better" machine with a 4k display. I've been arguing with Dell support since...

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#154

Post by Hydraulix989 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:38 PM UTC

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #149

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with a default setting of RAID -- but right now, they also lock you out of changing it back to AHCI. What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the cas…

> Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. You are right. No one's making excuses here :) > Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? You didn't, I did. I was walking on Lenovo's shoes and asking myself "What's good for the business right now?". I was considering my options, so to speak. > What I think is reasonable is allowing users to c…

"What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall?"

How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time?

I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT.

Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected (ostensibly for some marginal increase in battery life).

"If they were to provide the unlocked BIOS version "at your own risk", would you use it? And if it bricks your laptop, would you or someone else sue Lenovo?"

When I think of risk associated with setting a BIOS to AHCI mode? I don't think of nuclear explosions...

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#155

Post by johansch » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:38 PM UTC

johansch wrote: post #137

It's so sad to see this. (This entire thread, and its comments are down-voted.) Let me try again. New Microsoft is awesome! Old Microsoft never happened. Double plus good!

For the love of any god you worship: Will the Microsoft-ecosystem developers please stop downvoting this just out of spite? This is so pathetic.

You guys have truly proven yourself to be civil today, haven't you? F*ng pathetic. You guys are so insecure it's funny.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#156

Post by Hydraulix989 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:42 PM UTC

windexh8er wrote: post #153

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #37

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they…

Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the i…

"Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall."

No, only their consumer-level ultrabooks -- specifically, Yoga series.

I bought a P50 as well, and I love it; MUCH better for my use case (mobile app development that is "mobile") than any of the Apple products I've used.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#157

Post by Hydraulix989 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:43 PM UTC

n-gauge wrote: post #103

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Lenovo is claiming that the problem is Linux's fault because Linux isn't "forwards compatible"with the CNSAH -- except the CNSAH is actually backwards compatible with Linux, except Intel's usually enabled/unrestricted backwards compatible functionality is intentionally blocked by Lenovo by two lines of code in their BIOS. The fact that Intel's hardware is "CNSAH" (or even black box/proprietary/etc) is c…

from what has been shown to be a reversed engineer of the bios... a simple goto statement to skip menu config code muddies the water here... Why would a professional company do this? It certainly doesn't look accidental when seen from this angle.

Yes, as I say (I'm a software engineer), the proof is in the pudding; it's one thing to read a sugar-coated damage control PR press release; it's another to look at the code.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#158

Post by seba_dos1 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:44 PM UTC

windexh8er wrote: post #153

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #37

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they…

Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the i…

No, it's true for some of their newest ultrabooks, like Yoga 900S, Yoga 900 Business Edition, Yoga 710 and newer revisions of Yoga 900 marked as 13ISK2.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#159

Post by NetStrikeForce » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:45 PM UTC

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #154

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. You are right. No one's making excuses here :) > Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? You didn't, I did. I was walking on Lenovo's shoes and asking myself "What's good for the business right now?". I was considering my options, so to speak. > What I think is reasonable is allowing users to c…

"What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall?" How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected (ostensi…

> How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time?

It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance).

> I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. > Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected.

True, but I'm sure they plan on make money out of these calls. People will be more inclined to pay when "they" screwed up Windows than because "this piece of crap doesn't work well, even with Windows freshly installed".

Again, this is a guess of Lenovo's thinking.

> When I think of risk associated with setting a BIOS to AHCI mode? I don't think of nuclear explosions...

I mean flashing a non-supported BIOS :)

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#160

Post by farcical_tinpot » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:45 PM UTC

Seeing a manufacturer use fake RAID, by default, on a single disk system, then unfathomably hardwiring this into the firmware so it can't be changed, then have a Lenovo rep actually admit the reason with the forum thread censored and then see this kind of defence is downright hilarious.

Garrett should be condemning Lenovo for not making a perfectly configurable chipset feature....configurable and defending Linux and freedom of choice on hardware that has always traditionally been that way. But, no, he doesn't. He defends stupidity as he always does.