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Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

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Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#461

Post by colemickens »

byuu wrote: post #148
colemickens wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so predictable that people would run with conspiracy theories that make no sense and link to things that are completely unrelated. The "issue" that came up today in this article has absolutely nothing to do with SecureBoot.

Microsoft has already used SecureBoot to lock out Linux 'offer better security' on their phones and tablets. Is it really such a stretch for people to be afraid that they're going to require desktop/laptop vendors to leave SecureBoot on in the future? (and conveniently only recognize the key for Windows?) Probably our best saving grace against that is how rapidly mobile is cannibalizing the desktop/laptop market. Pro…

Yes, I do think it's a stretch considering their agreement with OEMs requires OEMs allow for diabling SecureBoot and require allowing users to enroll their own keys.

The PC market and mobile phone markets are very different, with a huge precedent already being set that mobile ARM devices are locked down. Are you equally upset that iPhones and virtually all Android devices also have locked down bootloaders?

On top of this, Microsoft cross signs the keys used to sign the Linux bootloaders so that they work out of the box even on computers that have only the default MS keys enrolled.

Considering that most people fail to grasp those two salient points when presenting their conspiracy theories... yes... I feel comfortable dismissing most of them out of hand.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#462

Post by khedoros »

leereeves wrote: post #460
khedoros wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's a setting that causes the hardware to behave differently, and which would need driver support to function.

The problem is that it's locked. As a default it would be fine, if it could be changed without removing the BIOS chip.

I agree completely with that. I responded because I partially disagreed with your earlier statement; I think it misses the point.

It's a locked UEFI setting causing a problem: true. The setting is causing a piece of hardware to behave in a mode not handled by the current Linux driver: also true. So there are two ways of looking at it.

First: It's a software issue that Lenovo should clear up (i.e. remove the locks on the appropriate parts of the UEFI configuration)

Second: It's a hardware issue that the Linux community can address by writing a driver for the alternate hardware mode.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#463

Post by grkvlt »

vanderZwan wrote: post #288

This looks like a timely moment to bring up Cory Doctorow's The coming war on general computation talk: > So today we have marketing departments who say things like "we don't need computers, we need... appliances. Make me a computer that doesn't run every program, just a program that does this specialized task, like streaming audio, or routing packets, or playing Xbox games, and make sure it doesn't run programs that…

I don't buy this. For example, if I rent an apartment, but there is a locked cupboard in it where the landlord stores a bunch of tools and other bits and pieces, I don't complain to AirBnB that I didn't get the full use of the property, and start a campaign suggesting they are infringing my rights by not letting me access the landlord's cupboard?

If I buy a device that is advertised to do X, and this is accomplished by running a program to do X on a locked-down general purpose computer, then it is (assuming no issues with program X) fit for purpose by any definition. If I wanted a general purpose computer, I would purchase one. The fact of the implementation detail being a general purpose computer is irrelevant, it doesn't impair my ability to do X if I cannot remove X and install Y, in fact it improves the ability to do X, by preventing the possibility of all sorts of misconfigurations and installation incompatibilities.

I admit that it's hard to find real-world analogies, and the landlord-cupboard above is not a perfect fit, but I still have no problem with saving money by purchasing a device that does one thing, and one thing only. I have no expectation that it be hackable or extensible, unless it is advertised as such.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#464

Post by vanderZwan »

grkvlt wrote: post #463
vanderZwan wrote: post #288

This looks like a timely moment to bring up Cory Doctorow's The coming war on general computation talk: > So today we have marketing departments who say things like "we don't need computers, we need... appliances. Make me a computer that doesn't run every program, just a program that does this specialized task, like streaming audio, or routing packets, or playing Xbox games, and make sure it doesn't run programs that…

I don't buy this. For example, if I rent an apartment, but there is a locked cupboard in it where the landlord stores a bunch of tools and other bits and pieces, I don't complain to AirBnB that I didn't get the full use of the property, and start a campaign suggesting they are infringing my rights by not letting me access the landlord's cupboard? If I buy a device that is advertised to do X, and this is accomplished…

I think you want to read the full transcript or listen to the whole talk instead of just respond to the one paragraph I highlighted. The context is quite important.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#465

Post by [deleted] »

grkvlt wrote: post #463
vanderZwan wrote: post #288

This looks like a timely moment to bring up Cory Doctorow's The coming war on general computation talk: > So today we have marketing departments who say things like "we don't need computers, we need... appliances. Make me a computer that doesn't run every program, just a program that does this specialized task, like streaming audio, or routing packets, or playing Xbox games, and make sure it doesn't run programs that…

I don't buy this. For example, if I rent an apartment, but there is a locked cupboard in it where the landlord stores a bunch of tools and other bits and pieces, I don't complain to AirBnB that I didn't get the full use of the property, and start a campaign suggesting they are infringing my rights by not letting me access the landlord's cupboard? If I buy a device that is advertised to do X, and this is accomplished…

[deleted]

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#466

Post by snerbles »

lol768 wrote: post #246
alphadevx wrote: post #122

Get a Developer Edition XPS 13 from Dell instead, comes with Linux pre-installed. I have one and they are awesome, if manufacturers support Linux they get my $.

I had nothing but trouble with my XPS 13 developer edition laptop. Ended up sending it back on the same day I got it. The issues I experienced were seemingly widespread too, with a lot of consumers complaining about the same problems on the forums. There were incredibly irritating keyboard debounce issues (and yes, I was running the latest BIOS version available at the time) and there were also issues with the touchp…

GNOME 3 on Debian Jessie works decently well with high-DPI screens - I'm using it now on the 3K 2015 version of the XPS 13.

Some controls won't scale up (Java Swing is particularly miniscule), otherwise it just works compared to most other desktop environments I tried last year.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#467

Post by amluto »

mjg59 wrote: post #427

This is horribly misleading - http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html has some more details. But the short version is that Lenovo are force-enabling a feature that ensures they get better power management, and which is unsupported under Linux because Intel have never submitted code. If Intel ever do so (or if someone else writes it), Linux will just work.

Do you happen to know what RAID mode does exactly? I will gladly write the Linux NVMe support for it if it's reasonably straightforward, but I couldn't get my XPS 13 to boot anything at all in RAID mode so I'm a bit stuck.

P.S. that missing NVMe power saving piece is now implemented for Linux and will hopefully be queued for Linux 4.9 :)

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#468

Post by morganvachon »

akerro wrote: post #234
morganvachon wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously equating the Novena with Librem? The former is a fully open hardware/software platform built from the ground up with openness and hackability in mind; some assembly required, configure it the way you want to. The latter is a rebranded x86 laptop with Intel's Management Engine firmly embedded and operational; it's a $600 midrange at best laptop being resold with Linux preinstalled for three times the…

Is there anything else?

Sure. The Novena is not for everyone; it's a hacker's dream laptop but not necessarily a power user's. Still, I strongly suggest not wasting money on a Librem and instead spend a little time researching a good Linux compatible laptop.

The last I heard, Dell still ships Ubuntu on some of their XPS models, and there are a few companies whose business model is based on officially supporting Linux on their own branded machines. System76[1] and ZaReason[2] immediately come to mind, but if you're seeking a fully open machine with no closed source drivers, look to Libiquity[3] for an older but FSF certified ThinkPad. Yes, it's a rebranded Lenovo so it may be a sour choice given the subject of this article, but it's a solid buy if you don't need today's CPU power. Ditto Minifree[4].

[1] https://system76.com/ [2] http://zareason.com/shop/home.php [3] https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200 [4] https://minifree.org/

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#469

Post by RandomOpinion »

khedoros wrote: post #439
RandomOpinion wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>locking existing users out of Linux A serious question: What gives Linux users the right to expect that Linux will run on any given PC / laptop? Think about it. These PCs/laptops are designed to adhere to Microsoft's Windows PC hardware standards doc (which was never, ever an open standard) and, with few exceptions, only tested against various versions of Windows. Linux users are failing to receive a feature that th…

The laptop supports a Linux-compatible option, and effort was expended specifically to disable that option. If some hardware isn't supported by Linux drivers, that's understandable. If software is added to restrict the modes that the hardware is allowed to operate in, and the restriction wasn't disclosed at the time of sale, I'll return the hardware, because the product doesn't match what I thought I was buying. If I…

> The laptop supports a Linux-compatible option

Where? I'm looking at http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/yoga/900-series/yoga-90... and the specs page lists only Windows 10 Home and Pro in the operating systems section.

> and effort was expended specifically to disable that option

Lenovo has issued a formal statement denying it. http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberate...

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#470

Post by scholia »

sevensor wrote: post #375
scholia wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This failure to innovate presumably includes touch screens, Windows Hello biometric sign-in, running sandboxed apps from a Windows Store, integrated Cortana AI, Notification Center, cloud integration via OneDrive, Continuum mode, Device Guard, Universal apps that work across PCs, tablets, phones and the Xbox One, Xbox app for streaming live games to a PC or Tablet, touch-optimized Office apps on Windows, iOS and Andr…

So I understand that these features took a great deal of engineering effort, but except for sandboxing I have zero interest in any of them. So maybe it's innovation, but I don't see a whole lot of innovation that I care about. In particular, many of these features deal with touch interfaces, which I have no desire ever to use for serious work. And why would I ever run Windows if I didn't have to for work?

It would still be useful to distinguish between innovations that hundreds of millions of people use -- including me -- and your personal requirements. Sadly, the whole IT world does not actually revolve around those ;-)
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