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Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

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Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#121

Post by ptaipale »

ricksplat wrote: post #87
madaxe_again wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like tradition. The IBM PC has been an "open" system since the late 70's. Tablets etc (palmtops!) started appearing in the 90's, and were walled gardens from the get go.

That was the whole thing about PCs - if my memory of Cringley's "Triumph of the Nerds" serves, the genesis of this category was IBM rushing to a market where other "closed" vendors such as Apple were already established. It wasn't that PCs were open "by design" but more that they did things quickly and gathered other vendors "off the shelf" notably Microsoft and Intel, and had a copyrighted "BIOS" holding the whole t…

And what Compaq did was possible because at that time you couldn't copyright the BIOS API. Today it might be different, to the loss of everyone.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#123

Post by eth0up »

kelnos wrote: post #107
mverwijs wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With closed source software, such as the firmwares and MacOSes of the world, it is impossible to have 'checks and balances'. Yet without computers to run and develop open software on, it is that much harder to create alternatives to those closed systems. I think this is very much a sliding scale. And that therefor the quote very much applies.

I'm still a bit flabbergasted: you really truly believe that disallowing installing Linux on a particular brand/model of laptop is directly comparable to the forced labor and extermination of millions of Jewish people during WW2?

I reluctantly comment here, but.. The misuse of technology (see: end of encryption; end of privacy; end of freedom; slippery slopes, etc.) could (by my perspective) lead to massive problems, including political/ideological persecution. However, "directly comparable" it probably isn't, yet.

If (IF) a time comes when the only software available is proprietary, restrictive, invasive and possibly insecure, in a world where software is ubiquitous and often essential, I think that could be bad. The definition of fascism does come to mind.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#124

Post by mverwijs »

kelnos wrote: post #107
mverwijs wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With closed source software, such as the firmwares and MacOSes of the world, it is impossible to have 'checks and balances'. Yet without computers to run and develop open software on, it is that much harder to create alternatives to those closed systems. I think this is very much a sliding scale. And that therefor the quote very much applies.

I'm still a bit flabbergasted: you really truly believe that disallowing installing Linux on a particular brand/model of laptop is directly comparable to the forced labor and extermination of millions of Jewish people during WW2?

Of course I do not believe it the way you portray it. It is called a 'sliding scale' for a reason, my friend. A 'slippery slope'[0], if you will. Completely different from 'directly comparable'.

At the top of the slope, it's "merely firmware, what is the problem?". At the bottom of the slope are warcrimes and genocide. It is very hard to stop sliding down a slippery slope once you've started.

So when you disallow Linux on a laptop you are very much at the top of the slope. And there is a long way to go. But my, oh my, it sure is slippery.

Because we live in a digital age. More and more so. And in this age, there is no way to have 'checks and balances' without access to the source code of the software. And without checks and balances, it is very hard to have Separation of Powers[1].

Interestingly enough, I've found that survivors of WW2 tend to understand this better than most.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#125

Post by easytiger »

alphadevx wrote: post #122

Get a Developer Edition XPS 13 from Dell instead, comes with Linux pre-installed. I have one and they are awesome, if manufacturers support Linux they get my $.

I bought a Lenovo X1 Carbon (most recent gen) and really regret it for a great many reasons. Wish I had gone for the XPS. Actually what swayed me was the very slightly larger screen.

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#127

Post by MawNicker »

tinus_hn wrote: post #85

Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I see no conspiracy here, just an OEM that doesn't get it.

I agree. Seems as if a service rep made silly mistake and likely got fired for the negative PR. :/

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#128

Post by ricksplat »

ptaipale wrote: post #121
ricksplat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the whole thing about PCs - if my memory of Cringley's "Triumph of the Nerds" serves, the genesis of this category was IBM rushing to a market where other "closed" vendors such as Apple were already established. It wasn't that PCs were open "by design" but more that they did things quickly and gathered other vendors "off the shelf" notably Microsoft and Intel, and had a copyrighted "BIOS" holding the whole t…

And what Compaq did was possible because at that time you couldn't copyright the BIOS API. Today it might be different, to the loss of everyone.

We're still waiting to hear what's acceptable in terms of "fair use" but yeah I guess reverse-engineering to create a competing clone probably wouldn't be covered :)

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#129

Post by jewbacca »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #51
0x0 wrote: post #20

So they did lie when they said "Microsoft Loves Linux". https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2015/05/06... Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Hello again MS, for a moment I was getting worried about you straying from your proven strategy.

Seriously. If this does turn out to be intentional on Microsoft's part, then there goes every last shred of trust and goodwill they've spent the last 10 years rebuilding.

(and, honestly, were finally succeeding at, to the point where I'm very close to willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here: how the hell could the benefits of such a thing come anywhere near to outweighing the amount of damage it would do?)

Re: Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

#130

Post by mverwijs »

eth0up wrote: post #123
kelnos wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still a bit flabbergasted: you really truly believe that disallowing installing Linux on a particular brand/model of laptop is directly comparable to the forced labor and extermination of millions of Jewish people during WW2?

I reluctantly comment here, but.. The misuse of technology (see: end of encryption; end of privacy; end of freedom; slippery slopes, etc.) could (by my perspective) lead to massive problems, including political/ideological persecution. However, "directly comparable" it probably isn't, yet. If (IF) a time comes when the only software available is proprietary, restrictive, invasive and possibly insecure, in a world whe…

The question that pops up into my mind is: what steps preceed such a world?

Microsoft blocking installs of Linux on computers that I own, seems one of those steps to me.

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