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How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

nytimes.com

81–90 of 186 posts

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#81

Venezuela is a failed state at this point. I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. I understand many people will find a point of disagreement here. This is especially true when corruption is rife. In countries with high corruption, it seems the very best thing to do is to limit as much as possible how much money flo…

> I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits.

Different markets have different needs. I disagree with socialism for all things. There are some things, where i think it's the best system we have. Air quality is a good example. Everybody needs air and it's hard to separate mine from yours. So, collective ownership with collective decisions about how much pollution is to be allowed makes sense to me.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#82
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venezuela is a case study in corruption, authoritarian dictatorship, rampant interference from outside states, and a multiple decades long brain-drain due to the aforementioned factors. this should not be held up as ANY KIND OF EXAMPLE whatever re: the efficacy of social safety net programs. it's simply a non-sequitur. the fact that you're even attempting to link them at all speaks poorly as to your own understanding…

I really don't get it. This sentiment always pops up on here when Venezuela is discussed. In the Chavez era, the ruling party pushed through rule by decree, suffered a military coup, purged the opposition, tried to set up their leader as dictator for life... and the lesson we should take away from the resulting chaos is that big spending on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting benefits?

Are you sure you don't get it? This stuff pops up because some of the community here are ideologues trying to score "points" off of this, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate of the situation being discussed. Any excuse to push for more tax cuts.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#83
Currency controls and price controls and government nationalization have destroyed Venezuela.

Currency controls: there's a 1:10 exchange rate, dollars to bolivars, for essential imports, like food, medicine, etc. The black market exchange rate is about 1:1010.

To get the good rate, you need connections. But hey, it's a pain in the ass to actually contact suppliers and get goods through customs, and you're capped at what price you can sell goods at, so what you do is actually exchange 10 bolivars for a dollar, and turn around and exchange that dollar for 1000 bolivars on the black market. You keep doing that until either you have way too much money or you lose the preferred exchange rate.

Price controls: No country is an island these days. No matter what good it is, you need external imports. For instance, if you're making beer, you might need to import hops or barley (true story, look up Polar in Venezuela).

With the currency controls, you can't get hard foreign currency to pay your suppliers. And they sure as heck aren't going to accept your debased currency as payment. So your factories sit idle, because you just can't get supplies for production, and then the government nationalizes your factory because you're "sabotaging production".

Government nationalization: The goal of the government is ideological purity. If you're not producing goods for sale at artifically low prices (sometimes the sale price is below the cost of production), the government swoops in, calls you an enemy of the revolution, and replaces all the skilled people who are ideologically impure, such as managers, with party hacks who have no idea what they're doing. That's why Venezuela oil production is in the toilet.

The Nordic version of "socialism" simply involves taxing the rich and giving subsidies to the poor. They don't try to dictate prices or control means of production or fiddle with the exchange rate. The authoritarian socialism Venezuela is using right now has failed in every instance it has been tried.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#84
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what about the other states that spend on social programs and ended up successful? This is like throwing out a carton of eggs because one of them broke.

How many nations fall into that category? There are only roughly 28 nations on earth with a GDP per capita over $20,000 for example. I happen to find what the six or so best managed welfare states in Europe have accomplished, to be impressive. However, for every Sweden in Europe, there are two Bulgarias. Or there's France, which has seen economic stagnation for nearly a generation. Most of the well-managed welfare st…

Well, how many fall in the opposite category? Isn't it pretty much a bell curve?

And their debts are so high because they had to bail out a deregulated finance sector, which caused a recession and major spike in unemployment, how is that a fault of a welfare state? You might as well argue the financial sector "stole from the future" by creating a decade long downturn. Quite the opportunity cost there.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna blame it on communism. It's not that they don't know how to produce oil. It's that the oil company has been so heavily mismanaged and used for political purposes that it has become extremely inefficient. http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21607824-venezuelas-l... > IN 2003 Venezuela’s then president, Hugo Chávez, fired more than 18,000 employees, almost half the workforce, of the state-run oil corporati…

your answer is on target but you're wrong to "blame it on communism." that has nothing to do with communism or any other abstract theory of political economy. that is an explicit example of incompetent authoritarian rule by an unhinged despot with no checks on his power.

> that is an explicit example of incompetent authoritarian rule by an unhinged despot with no checks on his power

… Communism!

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#86

Currency controls and price controls and government nationalization have destroyed Venezuela. Currency controls: there's a 1:10 exchange rate, dollars to bolivars, for essential imports, like food, medicine, etc. The black market exchange rate is about 1:1010. To get the good rate, you need connections. But hey, it's a pain in the ass to actually contact suppliers and get goods through customs, and you're capped at w…

I'm not sure that's how the black market works. I don't think I can exchange dollars for bolivars. That sounds like a losing proposition for the black market.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#87
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what about the other states that spend on social programs and ended up successful? This is like throwing out a carton of eggs because one of them broke.

Having social programs and being a Socialist government are two very different things. We can have Social Security here in the States and not be Socialist. Nordic "socialism" is just taxing the rich to give to the poor. What Venezuela did was textbook Socialism which, like Communism, is a path to economic, social, and political failure as well as massive human rights violations.

Venezuelan politics was textbook incompetence, you have idiot savants in every political outlook.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#88
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't get it. This sentiment always pops up on here when Venezuela is discussed. In the Chavez era, the ruling party pushed through rule by decree, suffered a military coup, purged the opposition, tried to set up their leader as dictator for life... and the lesson we should take away from the resulting chaos is that big spending on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting benefits?

Are you sure you don't get it? This stuff pops up because some of the community here are ideologues trying to score "points" off of this, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate of the situation being discussed. Any excuse to push for more tax cuts.

I guess I either assume they're sincere, or if not then they should at least be aware enough to realize that it's a bad argument. I realize this assumption may not be very well supported, but it can be hard to adjust.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having social programs and being a Socialist government are two very different things. We can have Social Security here in the States and not be Socialist. Nordic "socialism" is just taxing the rich to give to the poor. What Venezuela did was textbook Socialism which, like Communism, is a path to economic, social, and political failure as well as massive human rights violations.

I think you should read a textbook on Socialism before you make comments like this

Which one do you recommend?

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#90
post #32

You wonder how long Maduro will hang in there. With him gone they could return to somewhat sane economic policies.

With him gone they could return to somewhat sane economic policies.

Not necessarily. Somewhere there's somebody with some political leverage thinking that the solution is simply more socialism. Not the bad, failed socialism that Maduro ran, but actual socialism, run by smart people! Because this time things will be different!

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