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How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

nytimes.com

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Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#51

Post by jessaustin »

jondubois wrote: post #28
douche wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I don't imagine Royal Dutch Shell will be that eager to dive in again, unless they've got some very strong assurances that the next government isn't going to just pull the rug out from under them again...

It seems like a change of leadership would be necessary to restore trust. When you consider this, the corruption actually makes sense. The country's leaders probably know that it's just a matter of time before they are removed from power and are trying to make use that time they have left to enrich themselves personally.

This seems like it could explain all corruption everywhere? After all, "it's just a matter of time" for everyone.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#52

Post by marketanarchist »

danharaj wrote: post #31
wildmusings wrote: post #11

The wonders of socialism.

When people use Venezuela to criticize socialism, they always compare it to the most powerful, developed capitalist countries of the world. Look how poor and dysfunctional the failed state of Venezuela is compared to a capitalist country like the United States! When you compare Venezuela to those of its neighbors who are completely submitted to international capital and empire, capitalism doesn't seem so glamorous ei…

Even in comparison to their neighbors, they are doing poorly no?

I think the best indicator would be how people are voting with their feet. Are people fleeing from Venezuela to its neighbors or the other way around?

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#53

Post by jessaustin »

legulere wrote: post #41
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #26

Venezuela is a failed state at this point. I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. I understand many people will find a point of disagreement here. This is especially true when corruption is rife. In countries with high corruption, it seems the very best thing to do is to limit as much as possible how much money flo…

In Germany the publicly owned savings banks (Sparkasse) and credit unions (Volks-, Raffeisen- and Spardabanks) weren't affected by the financial crisis, only the large private banks were. Does that mean we should declare private banks as a failed system?

Yes? If what we've seen from the banks is success, one would hate to witness failure.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#54

Post by marknutter »

legulere wrote: post #41
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #26

Venezuela is a failed state at this point. I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. I understand many people will find a point of disagreement here. This is especially true when corruption is rife. In countries with high corruption, it seems the very best thing to do is to limit as much as possible how much money flo…

In Germany the publicly owned savings banks (Sparkasse) and credit unions (Volks-, Raffeisen- and Spardabanks) weren't affected by the financial crisis, only the large private banks were. Does that mean we should declare private banks as a failed system?

Germany wasn't being propped up by a single resource that was seized by the state. They are far more reliant on a capitalist system than Venezuela ever was during Chavez' reign. The comparison is absolutely silly.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#55

Post by wildmusings »

nnq wrote: post #38
wildmusings wrote: post #11

The wonders of socialism.

Sincere question: HOW? I mean, even if we assume a socialist economy is terribly inefficient, like operating at 50% of the efficiency a capitalist one, it still should be enough for sustaining a resource-rich country. WTF they are doing so wrong?! Are they under intense internal or external sabotage? Corruption is so bad? I mean, this is not some mid-African country with >50% of the population illiterate, bunch of ho…

>I mean, even if we assume a socialist economy is terribly inefficient, like operating at 50% of the efficiency a capitalist one, it still should be enough for sustaining a resource-rich country.

That's a hell of an assumption. One of the things you're failing to consider is that when resources are allocated by fiat instead of by markets, corruption becomes much more pervasive and suffocating.

Also, all of the people who have the skills and experience to get things done leave for somewhere they can be rewarded for their efforts instead of demonized.

>I mean, this is not some mid-African country with >50% of the population illiterate, bunch of horrible tropical diseases, plus children running around with guns and AIDS...

Except it actually isn't too far from that. People don't seem to recognize just how fragile civilization is.

Look at Cuba. It was once the richest country in Latin America. Today it is one of the poorest thanks to communism.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#56

Post by metaphorm »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #26

Venezuela is a failed state at this point. I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. I understand many people will find a point of disagreement here. This is especially true when corruption is rife. In countries with high corruption, it seems the very best thing to do is to limit as much as possible how much money flo…

Venezuela is a case study in corruption, authoritarian dictatorship, rampant interference from outside states, and a multiple decades long brain-drain due to the aforementioned factors.

this should not be held up as ANY KIND OF EXAMPLE whatever re: the efficacy of social safety net programs. it's simply a non-sequitur. the fact that you're even attempting to link them at all speaks poorly as to your own understanding of the situation and reveals your ideological agenda.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#57

Post by adventured »

joshred wrote: post #34
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #26

Venezuela is a failed state at this point. I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. I understand many people will find a point of disagreement here. This is especially true when corruption is rife. In countries with high corruption, it seems the very best thing to do is to limit as much as possible how much money flo…

Yeah, but what about the other states that spend on social programs and ended up successful? This is like throwing out a carton of eggs because one of them broke.

How many nations fall into that category?

There are only roughly 28 nations on earth with a GDP per capita over $20,000 for example.

I happen to find what the six or so best managed welfare states in Europe have accomplished, to be impressive. However, for every Sweden in Europe, there are two Bulgarias. Or there's France, which has seen economic stagnation for nearly a generation. Most of the well-managed welfare states have seen zero or near-zero economic growth for nearly a decade at this point, while their debt has exploded vastly higher as they try to fake-maintain their present standard of living by stealing from the future.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#58

Post by hansjorg »

nnq wrote: post #38
wildmusings wrote: post #11

The wonders of socialism.

Sincere question: HOW? I mean, even if we assume a socialist economy is terribly inefficient, like operating at 50% of the efficiency a capitalist one, it still should be enough for sustaining a resource-rich country. WTF they are doing so wrong?! Are they under intense internal or external sabotage? Corruption is so bad? I mean, this is not some mid-African country with >50% of the population illiterate, bunch of ho…

High corruption and a very thin fabric of society. Before Chavez came to power an almost apartheid system, which was fine with the (small) elite and of course with the large majority of US commentators.

Over ambitious social programs, an owner-class hell bent on sabotaging and completely backed by the US. What do you do when it all starts to slide? Tighten the screw. When that doesn't work, tighten it again. Recipe for disaster.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#59

Post by metaphorm »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #36
joshred wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what about the other states that spend on social programs and ended up successful? This is like throwing out a carton of eggs because one of them broke.

Having social programs and being a Socialist government are two very different things. We can have Social Security here in the States and not be Socialist. Nordic "socialism" is just taxing the rich to give to the poor. What Venezuela did was textbook Socialism which, like Communism, is a path to economic, social, and political failure as well as massive human rights violations.

I think you should read a textbook on Socialism before you make comments like this

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#60

Post by forgetsusername »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #26

Venezuela is a failed state at this point. I'm more than happy to personally take them as an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. I understand many people will find a point of disagreement here. This is especially true when corruption is rife. In countries with high corruption, it seems the very best thing to do is to limit as much as possible how much money flo…

>Venezuela is a failed state at this point.

Remember when the far left held Hugo Chavez up as the paragon of modern socialism? People pleasing in a petro-state is easy when oil is $150+ a barrel.

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