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Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

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Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#151

Post by tptacek »

krschultz wrote: post #145
tptacek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be so presumptious but I don't think you've thought this through. Microsoft threatened to drive companies out of the computer industry . There are still plenty of other viable mobile platforms to develop for if the iPhone doesn't work out for you.

No, they just prevented them from shipping software by default. No OEM was going to say, you know what, Netscape is more important to me than being in business. That's just a business deal. But as a user you could always just install it yourself. It was all about market share, there was no actual limitations on the device. This is about materially impacting WHAT YOU CAN DO ON THE DEVICE, as both a user (certain apps…

What Microsoft did was in fact so much worse than what Apple is doing that the DOJ sued them for it and won.

I think the reason for the vitriol on this particular issue is that Apple is doing something that computer geeks don't think is correct, and computer geeks can't handle it when people do things "wrong".

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#152

Post by michael_dorfman »

DannoHung wrote: post #68
tptacek wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm puzzled, since Apple has been shutting off fundamental techniques in computer science since day one. Today it's Flash compilers. Yesterday it was access to the filesystem, things that run in the background, etc.

Sandboxing an application is a bit different than mandating that the code be originally written in a certain way, regardless of what they compile to.

But the mandate only applies if you want to sell the app in their store.

Steve's not telling you how to write your code. He's telling you how to write code if you want him to sell it for you to his customers.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#153

Post by skywalker »

tptacek wrote: post #132
skywalker wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that it is much more than "you may only use Objective C to develop on this device". You also haven't thought this through. It has many more long term implications than the language choice. And we have a disagreement about what viable mobile platform means. For example, "Gameloft sells 400 times more games on iPhone than it does on Android." http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/29757/gameloft-cutting-andro..…

When the iPhone has 70% of the market, instead of the ~25% it apparently has now, your argument will make sense to me. Until then, you seem to think that Apple has additional responsibilities to the market simply because they're the best current platform. Being the best doesn't mean that.

I would guess they have 95% of the 3D mobile games market now.

And I didn't say they have additional responsibilities to the market at all. I was just making the case that to limit choice of your partners (and, therefore, your consumers) to kill your competitors is evil. It is what Microsoft did with OEMs and it is what Apple is doing with developers.

Is is perfectly possible to kill a competitor without being evil. The best example is Facebook. I don't think Facebook would ban a developer for using a Google API or a compatibility layer that make games work in Myspace too. They even allow multiple payment platforms!

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#154

Post by rimantas »

krschultz wrote: post #136
rimantas wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent talked about Apple. So did I. By the way, what are your sources? You look so damn well informed about what's going on at Apple.

Have you read the damn article at all? Source to source compilers are now against the TOS. Sure you can do it and how would Apple know - but commercially you can't advertise a tool that does it. Forget what's going on INSIDE Apple, people are pissed off about what Apple is trying to do to those on the outside.

Pardon me? I was not commenting on the article, I was commenting on the comment which outrageously claims pure bullshit that:

  … Apple has been shutting off fundamental techniques
  in computer science since day one.
And it does not name "iPhone team", it says Apple. What I say is that the work Apple is doing on LLVM, Clang, GCD, OpenCL, Webkit, etc. proves otherwise. I would gladly forget what's going on inside Apple, but first, I don't know, and second, this was addressed to some commenter talking like as if he knows (which he don't). So, thanks's for advice, but be advised to read the thread before commenting.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#155

Post by rimantas »

vegashacker wrote: post #10

Sure I've had my moments of App Store frustration, but all in all, I haven't been as offended by it as a lot of folks. I think that's because I felt that Apple was giving me something that I couldn't easily find elsewhere (single point of distribution that everyone knows about, very few taps for users to install my apps, the ability to easily charge for apps), so I was okay if they were a little particular about the…

  Apple telling us programmers not to write source to source
  compilers
Nice spin. But in reality Apple is telling that you cannot use such compilers to make iPhone apps. You are still free to write and use them elsewhere.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#156

Post by michael_dorfman »

generalk wrote: post #148
michael_dorfman wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Steve's response, I imagine would be: if you want to sell your app in my store, it's my business. If you don't like my rules, develop for a different platform. Seriously: if Barnes and Noble decides it only wants to sell fiction by authors whose last names begin with "Q", wouldn't we just consider it a bone-headed move, and not the cause for moral outrage? The iPhone is not the only smartphone on the market, and…

Seriously: if Barnes and Noble decides it only wants to sell fiction by authors whose last names begin with "Q", wouldn't we just consider it a bone-headed move, and not the cause for moral outrage? That depends on if B&N is the only way for you to get books. if you want to sell your app in my store, it's my business. I agree with that, and if that's all it were I couldn't see people being outraged. But there's pract…

But the iPhone isn't the only smartphone on the market, and Barnes and Noble isn't the only place to buy books.

Of course, the story is different in a monopoly situation. But that's clearly not the case here: there are a number of other mobile platforms available to developers.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#157

Post by rimantas »

krschultz wrote: post #138
rimantas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And apple is doing a lot in that field: Clang, LLVM, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL. Amazing how many fail to see the forest behind the tree. Apple releases iPad and that's the end of computers, Apple bans Flash, and suddenly it's shutting down CS.

General Motors did some cool research projects with fuel cell cars, their core products are still gas guzzling trucks. When you say Apple which comes up in people's mind first, the iPhone, or Clang? Seriously.

I don't know about GM, but I have clang on my OS X right now and I can tell Xcode to use it.

When you say "compiler" which comes up in people's mind first? I'd bet it's "WTF?".

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#158

Post by michael_dorfman »

krschultz wrote: post #142
michael_dorfman wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, then explain the consequences to me. A store-owner decides he wants to put an arbitrary restriction on the types of items he sells in his store. Let's say, perhaps, that a grocery store decides to stock only Organic produce. What's the moral harm?

That's not a good analogy. Those selling non-organic produce have plenty of other places to take their goods. They are commodities. Anyone who has invested in a language layer technology can't do that. You can't take your Flash -> Objective-C compiler and sell it anywhere else. Apple just forced you to lose all of your investment for no good reason. It's like offering communal grazing areas. A bunch of ranchers decid…

But Apple never offered a "communal grazing area". The iPhone has been a closed platform from day one, and everybody developing for the iPhone already had a metric buttload of restrictions on them.

If the ranchers decided to move their cattle to an area in the hopes that they might find communal grazing available, well, they took a risk, and lost. That's business.

Sellers of non-organic produce have plenty of other places to take their goods, and developers of applications for mobile devices/smartphones have plenty of other devices they can develop for.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#159

Post by pedalpete »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #115
fab13n wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is of course conscious of this trade-off (attractiveness of the platform+customer base vs. unattractiveness of being treated like shit by Apple). The thing is, they can easily back off when they will have to : today, most app developers won't snob the iPhone even if they're treated miserably. If they can't afford Android+iPhone portability, most of them will choose iPhone-only over Android-only. If/when a compe…

I think you are largely right, but don't forget that this pragmatic business view of the world does not dominate every phase in every hacker's life. Apple would be well advised to take note of the emotional sea change that helped sweep IBM and later Microsoft from their all powerful positions. Being hated is not a good position to be in for anyone, regardless of how powerful they may be at one point in time.

Was it Microsofts business practices that brought it down a few notches? or was it their lack of quality products?

Currently, business decision makers are likely looking at the market penetration/mindshare of iPhone vs Android.

However, in the coming months, I suspect we'll see a few points which steer businesses away from the iPhone.

1)you'll be able to develop apps to run on Android, WinMo 7, RIM and Palm, all likely using a single code-base and hooking into a framework which manages the different device api's (such as PhoneGap, or even Flash).

2)the overcrowding of the Apple store means as a business, you are trying to compete with thousands of others, while the other stores have less apps (at the time being), and more overall users.

The AppStore is like a huge mall with 50 million people and 150,000 stores.

The competing stores is like a mall with 100 million people, and only 10,000 stores. I'd much rather be one of fewer stores in a larger market, than the one of many in a smaller market.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#160

Post by tptacek »

stcredzero wrote: post #125
tptacek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conceded completely: that sucks.

This is a step above just saying, "It's our ball, you can't play!" This is waiting until someone goes and buys a bat and only then telling them they can't play.

And that's where you lose me. It sucks to be out $2000 and having the terms changed on you. I hope they get refunds. But keeping Adobe out of the iPhone dev tools market doesn't suck at all. It's a totally rational decision and while it is not the decision I would make, I will in the end probably benefit from it.
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