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Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

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Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#141

Post by ghshephard »

danparsonson wrote: post #21

The key is where they say "Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++." Take a pause and think about what that "originally" really means. Developers are not free to use any tools to help them. If there is some tool that converts some Pascal or, Ruby, or Java into Objective-C it is out of bounds, because then the code is not "originally" written in C. Yes it is "originally" written in C - when the…

The "Originally" clause was placed in their _precisely_ to forbid code converters.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#142

Post by krschultz »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #111
cousin_it wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really can't see why folks are getting their knickers in a twist. Your use of demeaning language doesn't make your opponents wrong. wouldn't we just consider it a bone-headed move, and not the cause for moral outrage? It's both. Legality != morality. A business practice can be perfectly legal but immoral. Of course you can say anything Apple does is moral because it's within their rights, but there are also other w…

OK, then explain the consequences to me. A store-owner decides he wants to put an arbitrary restriction on the types of items he sells in his store. Let's say, perhaps, that a grocery store decides to stock only Organic produce. What's the moral harm?

That's not a good analogy. Those selling non-organic produce have plenty of other places to take their goods. They are commodities.

Anyone who has invested in a language layer technology can't do that. You can't take your Flash -> Objective-C compiler and sell it anywhere else. Apple just forced you to lose all of your investment for no good reason.

It's like offering communal grazing areas. A bunch of ranchers decide to move their cattle down to your area because it makes economic sense at the time. Once they arrive, you put up a fence and say fuck you. Now they spent their time and money moving down there, and have nothing to show for it. Sure you didn't have a contract but they have real material losses due to the changes in basically, the TOS on your grazing land. Catlle might die, ranchers might not be able to afford moving them back and go out of business. The same applies with Apple. I would hate to be a startup in this space right now.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#143

Post by thenduks »

megamark16 wrote: post #37
endlessvoid94 wrote: post #36

Enough! If you don't like Apple's terms of service, DONT USE APPLE, and DON'T DEVELOP SOFTWARE FOR APPLE'S PRODUCTS. It's not unfair. Whether or not he's insane is irrelevant. Stop bitching and solve the problem. EDIT: downvote me for having an opinion? come on, HN.

I'd rather just avoid the problem all together by building apps on an open system like Android.

That's what he just said. Don't develop for the platform you dislike/don't agree with the policies of/etc.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#144

Post by wvenable »

thenduks wrote: post #135
wvenable wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Did everyone forget that when the iPhone shipped you couldn't write apps at all?" Yup. And did you forget all the complaints about that too and then the jailbreaking and then the development of apps without any SDK at all? You have to wonder if Apple would have ever created the app store if programmers hadn't done all that. "Why does everyone act like the iPhone should be as 'open' as an OS on your computer?" Why sh…

Considering the level of polish on the Cocoa Touch frameworks and the surrounding tools at release I'd say Apple was planning the AppStore long before the mob started RABBLE-RABBLE-ing about it. Still, I am absolutely not saying you shouldn't be allowed to complain. My point is only that I don't see what there is to complain about. I wouldn't complain about this any more than I would about not being able to write app…

> My point is only that I don't see what there is to complain about. I wouldn't complain about this any more than I would about not being able to write apps for my current crappy cellphone.

Really? When I had a crappy cellphone, I complained that the WAP browser was constrained to my provider's walled garden. I managed to crack it enough get out and even write my own WAP applications. So not only did I complain, I did something about it.

I also complain that my stupid DVD player doesn't let me skip over FBI warnings and previews. The fact that it was designed that way on purpose, doesn't mean it isn't something worth complaining about.

I think it's funny you feel complaining about the complaining is important but the original issue is not significant in comparison.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#145

Post by krschultz »

tptacek wrote: post #87
skywalker wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I will use my operating system monopoly to put you out of business if you don't assist me in putting an unrelated competitor of ours out of business" is worse to you than "you may only use Objective C to develop on this device"? What about this: "I will use my mobile operating system prestige to put your mobile company out of business if you don't assist me in putting a competitor of ours, Adobe, out of the mobile a…

Sorry to be so presumptious but I don't think you've thought this through. Microsoft threatened to drive companies out of the computer industry . There are still plenty of other viable mobile platforms to develop for if the iPhone doesn't work out for you.

No, they just prevented them from shipping software by default. No OEM was going to say, you know what, Netscape is more important to me than being in business. That's just a business deal. But as a user you could always just install it yourself. It was all about market share, there was no actual limitations on the device. This is about materially impacting WHAT YOU CAN DO ON THE DEVICE, as both a user (certain apps unavailable, this will make it worse) and as a developer. Microsoft never did anything like that on the scale Apple is doing now.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#146

Post by krschultz »

commieneko wrote: post #130
CoryMathews wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really shocked by your comment.. How can you even start to say that any company controlling how developers write their code is acceptable? It's complete BS. If I want to write it in (insert language here) and compile it into a compatible binary thats my choice not theirs. If I want to write it in Actionscript and compile down to objective-c who are they to say that I cannot? "There are possibly some anti-competitive…

It is acceptable for Apple to sell its hardware/software under any kind license that it wants to, as long as it isn't illegal. No one is under any obligation to develop for their platform. There are very real advantages to their closed wall approach; which console device makers have been doing for years. You pays your money and takes your choice (or visa versa...)

Everyone understands that. What people are pissed off about is the "originally" part. Lets agree that the only acceptable compiler is approved by Apple and that's it. Ok fine. Now what is the material difference between me hand typing code into a source file and building it with the compiler, or me generating the source file with a tool and then it gets compiled? Apple has no way to know that you have done the latter instead of the former - but they still have made this a reason to kick you out of the store. More importantly they have killed any tool that does the latter. This is not about closed walls and consoles. This would be like Sony telling Playstation developers they must type in Dvorak. They are going up the stack - into the actual way people are creating code - when there is no good reason to.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#147

Post by latch »

You know, this whole Apple thing finally makes sense to me.

They are simply trying to tie their developer community to their platform. Now is the time to do it, when competition is low. There's virtually no chance of this having any noticeable impact in its established community of developers. By year-end, when competition is a bit stronger, the groundwork they've put in place today will make it less likely that developers will bother to learn another platform.

Its what Microsoft did with Java and Netscape. It's what they did with IE.

I'm not saying its right. I'm just saying I finally understand it.

(and I know MS was sued, and lost, for each of those infractions).

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#148

Post by generalk »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #95
stcredzero wrote: post #8

Summary: If you need to "originally" write your code in Swahili, while listening to Milli Vanilli, while reclining in a patch of mud, and then you need fifty oompa loompas to translate the Swahili into C, that is none of Steve Jobs f#ck^ng business.

And Steve's response, I imagine would be: if you want to sell your app in my store, it's my business. If you don't like my rules, develop for a different platform. Seriously: if Barnes and Noble decides it only wants to sell fiction by authors whose last names begin with "Q", wouldn't we just consider it a bone-headed move, and not the cause for moral outrage? The iPhone is not the only smartphone on the market, and…

Seriously: if Barnes and Noble decides it only wants to sell fiction by authors whose last names begin with "Q", wouldn't we just consider it a bone-headed move, and not the cause for moral outrage?

That depends on if B&N is the only way for you to get books.

if you want to sell your app in my store, it's my business.

I agree with that, and if that's all it were I couldn't see people being outraged. But there's practically no other way to get apps on an iPhone.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#149

Post by krschultz »

theli0nheart wrote: post #98

Hasn't anyone else realized that this rule is totally unenforceable? How is Apple going to find out if something was originally written with Unity3D or Clojure? Everything is submitted to them as a binary. You can't inspect a binary and figure out what language the code that generated it was originally written in. So seriously, what's the problem here? Either there is none or I'm missing something.

More importantly the tools that do the transferring will get killed

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#150

Post by michael_dorfman »

cousin_it wrote: post #117
michael_dorfman wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, then explain the consequences to me. A store-owner decides he wants to put an arbitrary restriction on the types of items he sells in his store. Let's say, perhaps, that a grocery store decides to stock only Organic produce. What's the moral harm?

It's proportional to market share. I think we both agree that such a move would be immoral for a monopolist (making developers stupid... stifling progress... blah blah). Assume it causes X amount of moral harm. Then someone with 50% market share would cause X/2 moral harm by the exact same mechanisms. 1% market share, X/100 moral harm. Think of it as voting for Hitler: less evil than being Hitler, but still evil.

Sorry, but I still don't see it.

The owner of a store has a moral obligation to sell all possible goods in that store?

If I have a grocery store, I need to sell every possible foodstuff? I'm not allowed to decide that I want to sell only Organic produce?

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