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In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

politico.com

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Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#21

Post by q75ir082hq »

CM30 wrote: post #14
Animats wrote: post #12

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules. To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're il…

It's a good idea, but there are a few issues that still need ironing out: 1. Quite a few immigrants don't know their rights, or what the minimum wage is. Maybe I'm off the mark here, maybe some documentation you have to sign/read to get your visa mentions it, I don't know. But I suspect in a lot of cases, immigrants are just believing they're being paid a fair wage, and don't bother to find out if they actually are.…

I think that when immigrants don't complain about poor conditions, many of them are making a reasonable cost-benefit analysis, considering the risks of retaliation, unemployment, deportation, etc. Changing the system to shift the costs and benefits would make a difference. Employers of these immigrants are also making a cost-benefit analysis. Even if only a few percent of exploited workers complained, a well-designed policy could make employing such workers untenable.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#22

Post by q75ir082hq »

coldtea wrote: post #19
amunicio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does every illegal immigrant have more rights than you? Mind to clarify?

They get to stay in the country, work, some welfare etc, but without having to go through the system in the same bureaucratic way.

In what way do illegal immigrants get more welfare? I'm aware the some programs are restricted for legal immigrants (pending some waiting period or citizenship), but to my knowledge they are more restricted for those without legal status.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#23

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #19
amunicio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does every illegal immigrant have more rights than you? Mind to clarify?

They get to stay in the country, work, some welfare etc, but without having to go through the system in the same bureaucratic way.

[deleted]

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#24

Post by jomamaxx »

Animats wrote: post #12

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules. To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're il…

If you up the minimum wage, employers will just use illegals.

Because they can, and competitive market forces will push them into it.

The only long term answer is to have responsible, secure borders and reasonable amounts of controlled immigration.

There's no need for a special minimum wage for immigrants.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#25

Post by jomamaxx »

feklar wrote: post #10

Microsoft quote in this article advocating H-1Bs is interesting, as they spent $90M USD to open a research center in Canada in order to avoid H-1Bs. When asked why they didn't expand their Redmond base for the new research center and make use of H-1B visas they gave an answer about 'needing to diversify geographically and reach out to hubs that can offer new talent' which I just read as 'wanting to pay lesser salarie…

Paying Canadians $120K / year instead of paying Americans $140K / year is a 'thing' - but it's not the issue we're really concerned about.

Wage depression among masses of low-skilled workers is a very serious problem.

Wage issues in the top 10% is another dynamic entirely.

H1 abuse is actually concentrated in companies like Infosys and Tata - they are Indian companies who just want to bring in cheaper people from India without any other consideration.

They hire the most H1s.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#26

Post by henrybaxter »

thescribe wrote: post #3

This may be the best article on immigration I have read in a long time. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding, but why don't we use immigration as a knob just like we use interest rates or any other government tool. Too few jobs? Lower the quota. Too many unfilled jobs? Raise the quota. It seems really simple to me.

I believe the author is arguing that, regardless of where you turn the knob (except off), you'll end up with a redistribution of wealth that helps some and hinders others. Put another way: any amount of immigration with current policies will mean more money for immigrants and employers of immigrants, and less money for native workers they are displacing/competing with.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#27

Post by toomuchtodo »

jomamaxx wrote: post #24
Animats wrote: post #12

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules. To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're il…

If you up the minimum wage, employers will just use illegals. Because they can, and competitive market forces will push them into it. The only long term answer is to have responsible, secure borders and reasonable amounts of controlled immigration. There's no need for a special minimum wage for immigrants.

Don't forget harsh punitive penalties for hiring illegal immigrants, penalties which should pierce the corporate veil.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#28

Post by norikki »

q75ir082hq wrote: post #22
coldtea wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get to stay in the country, work, some welfare etc, but without having to go through the system in the same bureaucratic way.

In what way do illegal immigrants get more welfare? I'm aware the some programs are restricted for legal immigrants (pending some waiting period or citizenship), but to my knowledge they are more restricted for those without legal status.

http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/articles/2011/immigrant-w...

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#29

Post by MisterBastahrd »

biocomputation wrote: post #16
feklar wrote: post #10

Microsoft quote in this article advocating H-1Bs is interesting, as they spent $90M USD to open a research center in Canada in order to avoid H-1Bs. When asked why they didn't expand their Redmond base for the new research center and make use of H-1B visas they gave an answer about 'needing to diversify geographically and reach out to hubs that can offer new talent' which I just read as 'wanting to pay lesser salarie…

H1-B is a socially destructive program that needs to end. Big companies, in tech and otherwise, use it to keep labor costs down and as another negotiating tool. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! It's funny how all these huge companies that have billions in cash, and who don't pay their fair share of taxes, are always crying poor and wanting more subsidies from someone. H1-B is effectively a subsidy provi…

All H1-B needs is for the superstars who come over (since the employer supposedly can't find qualified US candidates) is to make wages corresponding with that status. Make the minimum pay for an H1-B 140% of the local average for a person at that position, and that market will evaporate overnight. As it should.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#30

Post by norikki »

0verD0ses wrote: post #5
thescribe wrote: post #3

This may be the best article on immigration I have read in a long time. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding, but why don't we use immigration as a knob just like we use interest rates or any other government tool. Too few jobs? Lower the quota. Too many unfilled jobs? Raise the quota. It seems really simple to me.

It's not quite as simple as that. Immigration can in some cases actually create more jobs in the economy, but in other cases doesn't have this effect, so its hard to pinpoint the optimal amount of immigration for economic growth.

I would love to see the study that can find a case where immigration creates more jobs than it consumes.
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