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The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

nytimes.com

21–30 of 98 posts

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#21
post #11

> people tend to make decisions based on intuition rather than reason. I think these types of article have a too-narrow definition of rationality. I think that emotions, feelings and intuition are subconscious processes but still part of the faculty of reason. The mistake is to think that rationality = conscious-logical-deduction but anyone who has solved some complex problem knows the experience of working on a prob…

Are you suggesting that reason include intuition? I don't believe that would ever be a helpful definition of the word. --- Reason is conscious; intuition is subconscious. Of course, they're related: reason can train intuition, and intuition can catalyze reason. But I disagree that a conversational distinction is inappropriate.

It's likely that Descartes would've disagreed with you on this point.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rationalism-empiricism/#1....

    Intuition is a form of rational insight. ....

    The Intuition/Deduction Thesis: Some propositions in a particular subject area, S, are knowable by us by intuition alone;
    still others are knowable by being deduced from intuited propositions.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that reason include intuition? I don't believe that would ever be a helpful definition of the word. --- Reason is conscious; intuition is subconscious. Of course, they're related: reason can train intuition, and intuition can catalyze reason. But I disagree that a conversational distinction is inappropriate.

It's likely that Descartes would've disagreed with you on this point. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rationalism-empiricism/#1.... Intuition is a form of rational insight. .... The Intuition/Deduction Thesis: Some propositions in a particular subject area, S, are knowable by us by intuition alone; still others are knowable by being deduced from intuited propositions.

Good. That makes me even more confident that I am right. I disagree with some of his math so its a draw anyway.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely that Descartes would've disagreed with you on this point. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rationalism-empiricism/#1.... Intuition is a form of rational insight. .... The Intuition/Deduction Thesis: Some propositions in a particular subject area, S, are knowable by us by intuition alone; still others are knowable by being deduced from intuited propositions.

Good. That makes me even more confident that I am right. I disagree with some of his math so its a draw anyway.

Solid reasoning.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#25

The article presents the following experimental premise: “Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in antinuclear demonstrations.” Then they asked the subjects which was more probable: (A) Linda is a bank teller or (B) Linda is a bank teller and is active in the fe…

Or alternatively, the existence of (b) means that (a) is generally understood to mean "Linda is a bank teller, and is NOT active in the feminist movement", regardless of how literally the instructions say to take it.

Either way, it's more a failure of communication between the experimenters and the subjects, rather than a failure of rationality on the part of the subjects. Which is still interesting (and perhaps more interesting), but in a completely different way.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#26
post #11

> people tend to make decisions based on intuition rather than reason. I think these types of article have a too-narrow definition of rationality. I think that emotions, feelings and intuition are subconscious processes but still part of the faculty of reason. The mistake is to think that rationality = conscious-logical-deduction but anyone who has solved some complex problem knows the experience of working on a prob…

Are you suggesting that reason include intuition? I don't believe that would ever be a helpful definition of the word. --- Reason is conscious; intuition is subconscious. Of course, they're related: reason can train intuition, and intuition can catalyze reason. But I disagree that a conversational distinction is inappropriate.

I agree that those are useful words to distinguish. I also think it's worthwhile to have a thing called "rationality" which maybe means "doing the best possible thing with your brain given your goals," which has to include both of what we're calling reason and intuition [1].

But I wanted to say some words here to flesh out the subject in a little more detail.

"Reason" and "Intuition" may be separate, incomparable types.

I think of Reason sort of like a technical spec -- a description of how a system should work, which leaves the implementation details as an exercise for the reader. I think most people use the word Intuition, meanwhile, as a catch-all to mean "anything that's not consciously executed logical reasoning (and probably not sensory processing either)."

Underlying all these are the implementation details I mentioned I above--the actual "algorithms" our brain is executing. How you actually implement "reason" can make it better or worse, faster or slower, and I've found that people can make significant gains by changing the details of what they are doing with their minds.

More broadly, I think people are capable of having significantly more access to their "unconscious" than most people realize (hence the scare quotes around the word ;)), and further that those nonlogical processes can also be different, and yield better or worse, faster or slower results.

(To justify "significantly more access" a little: consider that 200,000 years ago, no one knew how to do formal logic, but all the required machinery was there between our ears. We did stuff back then that was a primitive type of reasoning just because we had no basis or training in doing better. Today we have decades of training and a culture that supports such things. If you've been educated at all, you've had years of training in reasoning. How much training have you had in introspecting on what we're calling here "unconscious" processing? Probably none or not much! I claim that training in this area can allow a person to have much richer and higher quality "intuitions.")

Anyway, many people sense that the processes they are executing aren't reliable, and some of those come to believe they must rely on what they think of as reason, to the exclusion of their other faculties like emotions. That makes sense, but I think the stronger move is to understand, in detail, what your mind is actually doing, learn what those processes are good for, and where they are weak, and finally change and improve the processes where appropriate.

There's a lot of interesting work going on in this field, and we're just getting started!

[1] I'm the managing director of the Center for Applied Rationality, a nonprofit in the bay area, so I spend an unusual amount of time thinking about this stuff.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. That makes me even more confident that I am right. I disagree with some of his math so its a draw anyway.

Solid reasoning.

Its Bayesian but the rhetorical trick is that I didn't tell you how much it increased my confidence. ;-)

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#28
post #8

If this interests you, check out https://intelligence.org/rationality-ai-zombies/ .

If that interests you, ask for a chart of the real-world successes of LessWrong readers compared to non-LW readers. Also about the mosquito nets versus AI dialectic in Effective Altruism.

As a LessWrong reader I agree that real-world success should be the defining metric, but want to point out that you can't just compare "LessWrong readers to non-LW readers" - if LW readers are not successful IRL, then it's entirely possible that there's some personality factor that both makes you not successful and makes you read LW.

Probably the thing to measure is LW vs. other productivity blogs with a similar audience.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#29
post #11

> people tend to make decisions based on intuition rather than reason. I think these types of article have a too-narrow definition of rationality. I think that emotions, feelings and intuition are subconscious processes but still part of the faculty of reason. The mistake is to think that rationality = conscious-logical-deduction but anyone who has solved some complex problem knows the experience of working on a prob…

How would you go about showing that emotions, feelings and intuition produce good results without proving that very idea rationally? While intuition may be useful to get good results (perhaps it is the subconscious quickly applying some pattern that has worked in the past) there's no way to know a particular use of intuition worked unless you go back later and rationally analyze the results. And more importantly, the…

Forget reason, rely only on intuition, and there will be no 'working' or 'not working'. Stop thinking and end your problems. (Tao Te Ching, chapter 20) Isn't that what we are all after, having no problems?

Is there any point in time where in reality you are more than sensory signals entering your consciousness? Is everything not a mere an illusion of your mind? Letting intuition figuring everything out is effortless, why dwell on illusions?

Thus there is no use for reason.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#30

The article presents the following experimental premise: “Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in antinuclear demonstrations.” Then they asked the subjects which was more probable: (A) Linda is a bank teller or (B) Linda is a bank teller and is active in the fe…

Your reaction is exactly the reason the question was constructed that way. A lot of the available information would lead you to conclude that the provided details were important and that they support a specific option being more likely.

But if you rationally consider the options, it's apparent that option B can't possibly be more likely than option A, regardless of the information presented, because option B is by definition a subset of option A. It is not possible for Linda to fit option B but not option A, so option B can't possibly be more probable.

The fact that it's a leading question designed to promote assumptions is not a flaw; it's the whole point of the experiment. Even intelligent people are supposed to be led to the wrong conclusion because they try to analyze all the available information. But rational people are supposed to recognize that the presented information is irrelevant and that they can pick the right answer even if they don't know anything about Linda.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll mention that I had exactly the same reaction regarding the quality of the question. It was only after some consideration that I realized this may have been intentional on the part of the people conducting the experiment.

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