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We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

remotebase.io

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Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#41
post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

> RW makes your tech job even easier to offshore I don't think so. Offshore comes with its own challenges.

Tell that to managers.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#42

It is somehow ironic that not so long ago we could send ships on a 4 month trip around the word, could manage the construction of amazing buildings or sent armies to fight wars on the end of the word without being able to communicate with the people doing their job/duty. Nowdays we can barely let change the font size of a button on a webpage without having a stand up meeting or a conference call.

I'm pretty sure that, if Queen Izabella could have daily standups with Chris Columbus, she would.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#43
post #29

> In remote team, we get to experience the culture at its most naked form. There is no catered lunch or a hip office with table tennis table. Everything artificial is stripped away. I totally disagree with this. The most naked form of communication is (and IMHO always will be) face to face. I can't tell how many countless times many emails were exchanged before simply speaking face to face solved the problem. Working…

Not in every case. It was often an excuse for my last manager to not do anything like write down requirements. "I thought we talked about that." "Yes you changed your mind three times and I can't remember what the final outcome was." Personally I like having things done in writing as you have something solid to refer to afterwards.

The proper action with such people is to send a follow up mail. "I summarized our decisions from the coffee break...".

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#44
post #37
post #13

I get what this is saying, but there does seem to be a nearly-unspoken assumption here that the "perfect" working environment involves high-frequency communication, including regular synchronous communication -- i.e. replicating the open-plan/daily standups/short iterations model of programming that seems to be the current thing for in-office programming jobs. That's a perfectly reasonable model, and clearly suits a…

It's hard - when that model (leave people to do the right thing) works well - it is amazing. It needs skilled and engaged people. The problem comes when you have people that don't work well under that model, and who need continual check points to ensure they really are doing the right thing, and that you haven't just wasted a bunch of time. Getting these two groups to work together is hard, when sadly, getting great…

Agreed. But there doesn't seem to even be much willingness to try the "autonomous people" model.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#45
post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

I think RW supporting teams that do RW well (including both managers who know how to run it and techies) outperform local ones. However, RW makes it easier for slackers to slack off; it is difficult for less effective managers to detect, let alone handle it.

I think managing RW teams well (getting needed work and shielding members from most non-tech crap) is a pretty rare skill.

In any case, if you want to do X (work remotely) and your management sees this as a problem, not a solution, consider looking elsewhere.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#46
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is there - Jira, Slack, Skype, GitHub, email... There is absolutely no excuse to not have remote jobs.

Did you not read most of my comment? The technology is there, it wasn't ten years ago. Now, it comes down to management setting strict guidelines and enforcing them. What good is it to pay for Jira accounts when nobody uses them? Or what good is it to have Github and everybody ends up hosting their own private repos? That is definitely a management mandate, and logistically, it's a lot easier to manage a group if the…

I'd say the tech has been there a lot longer than you think, I've known people who've worked in distributed teams 20 years ago. Yes, the tech was a little different, but it was still good enough.

I absolutely agree with you though that the culture of making sure everything is done using those tools is the important part. You essentially have to give up most of the benefits you might get from some members being colocated and do everything as though you were all at separate sites.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are 2 sides and both sides are important. I think that the author was focussing on the half of our awake time that we spend doing our job, while you are focussing on the other half. The author is probably talking about naive remote job seekers who focus on the job but don't consider the team culture. I was one such naive job seeker and used to think in that manner until a few years ago.

Can you elaborate on the challenges you encountered with dealing with remote team culture? What realizations or adaptations made you less naive and more realistic and pragmatic in dealing with it?

Not OP, but my personal experience, having done some remote work for a big multinational and now for a startup, the reason it worked well for me was because I already knew the people very well.

If I were to join a team of people I've never met to work remote there are too many subtle unasked questions in the background. For example, right now I have one guy I work with who I only met - and only briefly - after months of working together. I often was in doubt about Skype chats and emails, did I go too far? Was that humor appropriate? His response seems chilly, and he hasn't responded for 5 minutes now but until I said THAT he always responded right away, did I offend him?

You can just brush it off and ignore it, and it may work out - or it may accumulate under the surface until some day it explodes. Or more likely, it's going to fester below the surface and hinder communication: You are less likely to communicate and when you do then only the minimum when you are unsure of the other guy, even if it is just slightly. It really does not need to be a major disagreement, the small and sometimes (when remote, often?) imagined ones are that hurt.

It feels much safer to work away from others when you already feel safe about what will happen when you screw up, or when you make a mistake on the project or in the communication, when you understand the other side from experience. Otherwise imagination takes over, your brain fills the parts that are not visible in remote communication, and when it has no data to do so it will just fill in something, and if you don't feel extremely secure in yourself and in your relationship that may very well be small subtle fears.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#48
post #45
post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

I think RW supporting teams that do RW well (including both managers who know how to run it and techies) outperform local ones. However, RW makes it easier for slackers to slack off; it is difficult for less effective managers to detect, let alone handle it. I think managing RW teams well (getting needed work and shielding members from most non-tech crap) is a pretty rare skill. In any case, if you want to do X (work…

>I think managing RW teams well (getting needed work and shielding members from most non-tech crap) is a pretty rare skill.

I can't agree more, here's an article elaborating on the topic :

http://read.reddy.today/read/3/remote-teams-are-the-future-b...

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#49
post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

" Then again other things in the past were a no-brainer future (e.g. less working hours - see experiments in Kellogs) but the world spinned to a different direction."

You are more efficient when you work less (obviously, because you have an internal deadline that says you want to finish before your time is up), it is just that the culture surrounding software engineering is biaised towards long hours, half in which you are not really working or working with a terrible productivity, or worse, be in endless meetings. It also pleases management to work more hours, because you "work harder" :-).

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#50

> In remote team, we get to experience the culture at its most naked form. There is no catered lunch or a hip office with table tennis table. Everything artificial is stripped away. I totally disagree with this. The most naked form of communication is (and IMHO always will be) face to face. I can't tell how many countless times many emails were exchanged before simply speaking face to face solved the problem. Working…

I don't think the author is claiming that more expressive or rewarding friendships form as much as he's claiming that remote really makes you focus on the meat and the content of the colleague's output. That's actually something I LOVE about working remotely. There are far fewer politics because instead of saying "Oh man, Jimmy looked at me cross-eyed last week, I don't want to do anything with him anymore", you just…

In a previous job I gradually instituted by own work-from-home policy for similar reasons. This situation was more due to negativity breeding itself in the office (which was a result of politics) and less about the politics directly.

When I'm having a rough day, I might be sitting there silently thinking negative thoughts about some situation I just dealt with through the computer. But if someone else exclaims some frustration aloud while I'm also in a bad mood then I'm more likely to join in on the bitch session. Eventually I realized how toxic the environment was, and I started working from home as often as I could get away with. Occasionally I was reprimanded for not showing up enough, but that led to an Office Space-like situation where I would show up just enough to avoid the hassle of "a talk."

My productivity at home was well over double (or in the office it was far below half, depending on how you look at it) and my outlook on life became a lot more healthy.

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