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Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

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Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is definitely not an answer. Grandparent suggested that genetics plays a role in why people in one country are different from people in another. And you respond by saying that if he says that, he might say something else, which you find even more unacceptable! It should be possible to admit that if 1) you're dealing with a country of genetic relatives, and 2) genetic factors are responsible for 60-80% of the var…

genetic factors are responsible for 60-80% of the variance in IQ That is untrue, and is known to be untrue by the leading researchers on human behavioral genetics. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1177649 The current view by the researchers most familiar with the data is that broad heritability figures report, for a given sample, simply that monozygotic twins tend to be more similar than dizygotic twins, and close…

So what percentage of the variance do they account for?

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#52
post #46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada also scores highly in PISA rankings. However it is officially bilingual, has high immigration, many ESL and FSL students. Within Canada: Alberta, Ontario, British Columbia and Quebec score higher than the national average and they are the provinces with the highest in-migration.

Finland is officially bilingual, too, and a significant number learn finnish as a second language (like this Thorvalds guy you might have heard about). The rest start learming swedish as the second language in grade 3, IIRC.

Yes Linus is from the Swedish-speaking minority - about 5% of the population right? However, I don't think you are disagreeing that Canadian schools have much more ethnic and linguistic diversity than Finnish schools.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#53
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^^^ As a parent you'd be amazed at how many people think their kid is special because they can do one thing that other babies at that age don't. Things like, "He walked before other babies","She started talking at a few months","She eats normal food and can hold a spoon". My wife fell into this trap when kids his age were walking or talking and he was just scooting along. I told her I'd worry about it if he's still…

As a new parent myself, I cannot agree strongly enough. My 3-month-old can say "hungry" (way ahead of the curve) but can't yet roll over (behind the curve). That's simply the nature of people -- we don't all learn every topic at the same rate. Trying to push kids into learning at the same rate simply means you'll be ineffective at teaching some fraction of them. Recognizing that some of them just aren't ready to lear…

I haven't read that book, but the best book on brain development in kids that I've seen is What's Going On In There? You may like it. (My kids are 2 and 5.)

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#54
post #2

Culture. The system is derived from their cultural values and works because of the cultural values. It's been shown again and again in educational studies: some systems are certainly better than others, but culture is the primary factor.

But there are noticeable differences in how schools are operated in Finland ("The Finnish philosophy with education is that everyone has something to contribute and those who struggle in certain subjects should not be left behind.") that should be looked at in trans-national comparisons. The detailed reading I am doing currently in The Mathematics Pre-Service Teachers Need to Know http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/1308…

Absolutely, methods matter. But there appears to be a very real limit at which changing the method doesn't notably change the results.

I don't have a quick cite list. But it's been consistent across literally every single study I've seen that controls for parental involvement/cultural value of education. It's more predictive than parents' education level, neighborhood, curriculum, socioeconomic status, etc.

The only off-hand references I have to get you started are what the Michigan Department of Education has been beating my sister-in-law over the head with since she's enrolled my niece in public school.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:n3iDh53x4ywJ:w...

http://pdonline.ascd.org/pd_online/whatworks/marzano2003_ch1...

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#55
post #39
post #22

People also say that Finish is fiendishly difficult to learn. Perhaps there's some ground in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Finnish is not insanely difficult to learn. It is however very difficult to teach using traditional methods. It is nott an Indo-European language, shares next to no vocabulary base with other language groups in the region, and is incompatible with the standard (historically Latin-derived) models of grammar. This makes a formal description of the language much more complex than the language itself. It is possible for…

You refute that it is difficult to learn in the first sentence then go on to explain why it's difficult to learn. Finish may help with second language acquisition.

My other point was the focus on linguistics. This could cause the Finish people to see things in a more lateral way as they have more linguistic tools to describe problems expressly because of the focus on languages. This leads to greater communication and understanding.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#56
post #48
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any reasons to believe that is relevant? If you take PISA scores to be a good indicator than there are homogeneous and non-homogeneous societies near the top and bottom. Canada ranks right up there with Finland every year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA sometimes topping Finland in a category. It is easy to find countries that are culturally homogeneous near the bottom of the rankings as well.

Canada and Finland are culturally far more similar than the US and Finland. Both are also bilingual, northern, woodsy and even share some genetics (Finns mostly migrated to Canada, Michigan etc. way back when that was happening).

When it comes to cultural homogeneity Canada and Finland are not at all more similar than Canada and the U.S. - which was the issue here. Perhaps the Canadian and Finnish educational systems have more in common than with the U.S. which may have been your point.

Does being officially bilingual, northern, and woodsy have an impact on PISA rankings?

Finns do not make up a large or even a moderate proportion of Canada's population.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#57
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally unfashionable is the idea that there are advantages to homogeneous societies and classrooms.

Your statement is glib and unproductive. Obviously there are advantages to homogeneous societies. There are advantages to heterogeneous societies, which the U.S. is a pretty good example of. The point is not which is "better", but what lessons can we take to improve the things in our society which are deficient? Education in the U.S. is currently deficient, and we should look at why and how and try to find out what w…

Education in the U.S. is currently deficient, and we should look at why and how and try to find out what works. Unfortunately, it's tricky to run experiments in education, because of political considerations and largely because the result has real effects on people's lives, but it's what needs to be done to improve.

Or perhaps we need to do things which it is intuitively obvious should work, but which there is currently not the political will to implement -- eg firing bad teachers and doing more to stop student truancy.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't it? The per-taxpayer cost ratio would remain the same.

As the bureaucracy got bigger, wouldn't it cost more? More levels of management, more paperwork, more time spent on oversight. I don't think the cost/size relationship in any government is linear.

But education isn't handled at the Federal level in the US (and to the extent that it is, it damn well shouldn't be).

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#59

perhaps delaying the mind-warping effects of school for a few extra years really helps.

That leaped out at me as well.

Piaget demonstrated that brain development tends to come in spurts that are closely correlated with growth spurts. One of the key ones generally hits in the range 5-7 and gives a sudden improvement in ability to learn concrete mental operations such as the ones involved in reading, writing and arithmetic.

By contrast the decades long US trend is towards pushing abstract learning younger. There are some statistics indicating that this trend has been strongly correlated with increased gender disparities in school motivation and performance in favor of girls. Which makes sense since boys tend to hit that initial spurt later, and so are more likely to have bad experiences with the start of school. That could easily lead to long-lasting bad attitudes towards school that will guarantee poor performance later on.

Also the Finnish attitude of less school makes perfect sense for me. Because the key is to maintain interest and motivation. The actual hours of instruction we need are not that great, but increasing hours at some point brings diminishing returns on instruction at the cost of frustration and pain for the students.

This brings me to homework for obvious reasons. Research on the benefits of homework show an interesting mixed effect. Homework is practice, but practice can as easily fix wrong ideas as right ones. So homework drives responsibility for teaching to the ability of the home to ensure correct practice. The result is a strengthening of socioeconomic factors on school performance but little net difference in learning. Of course the strongest correlation found is that quantity of homework correlates with conflict at home. With said conflict arising due to the attempts of parents to get kids to do homework they don't want to do.

So summarizing, delaying instruction until kids are ready to learn, giving them sufficient high quality instruction that they do learn, and then limiting the quantity enough to prevent frustration is likely to lead to sustained learning. And sustained learning has good results. Makes perfect sense and makes you wonder why the USA takes the opposite approach on each of those things.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#60
post #38
post #3

Summary: 1. Finnish parents read with their children. 2. Low immigration - so "Finnish as a second language" is not a problem there. 3. Education and educators are valued highly by Finnish culture. 4. And contrary to all our K-4 efforts, kids don't start school to 7.

Canada also scores highly in PISA rankings. However it is officially bilingual, has high immigration, many ESL and FSL students. Within Canada: Alberta, Ontario, British Columbia and Quebec score higher than the national average and they are the provinces with the highest in-migration.

Per Statistics Canada, Canada's immigrant population is highly educated, 90% emigrated legally, and a large percentage are Asian in origin.

Is it safe to say that doesn't reflect recent (last 25 years) immigration patterns to the U.S. or to Western Europe?

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