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Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

news.bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#21

Post by drunkpotato »

Adrock wrote: post #7
hugh3 wrote: post #4

Genetics? The article doesn't even pause to consider the possibility that Finnish people, a small and relatively isolated population, might just happen to be, on average, genetically just a bit smarter than world population at large. While thinking about these things is horrendously unfashionable, it should be considered before we start assuming that we can replicate their success by copying their school system.

Equally unfashionable is the idea that there are advantages to homogeneous societies and classrooms.

Your statement is glib and unproductive. Obviously there are advantages to homogeneous societies. There are advantages to heterogeneous societies, which the U.S. is a pretty good example of. The point is not which is "better", but what lessons can we take to improve the things in our society which are deficient?

Education in the U.S. is currently deficient, and we should look at why and how and try to find out what works. Unfortunately, it's tricky to run experiments in education, because of political considerations and largely because the result has real effects on people's lives, but it's what needs to be done to improve.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#23

Post by yellowbkpk »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #11
shin_lao wrote: post #6

There are 5 M inhabitants in Finland. How much do they spend in their education system? Does it scale to a country of, say, 50 M inhabitants?

Why wouldn't it? The per-taxpayer cost ratio would remain the same.

As the bureaucracy got bigger, wouldn't it cost more? More levels of management, more paperwork, more time spent on oversight.

I don't think the cost/size relationship in any government is linear.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#24

Post by greggraham »

Notice that technology is not a critical part of their success. I didn't see a lot of shots of kids in front of computers, but rather, teachers and students interacting with each other. I work at a private school that has a similar philosophy, which contrasts with the other private schools in the area with which we compete. We're not interested in 1-1 laptop programs because we don't want devices getting in the way of personal relationships. Of the upper tier private schools in the area, we have the highest scores and the lowest tuition, and very good acceptance rates in top colleges. We invest in teachers who are well educated (all at least masters, several PhDs) and are happy (very high retention rate).

I don't mean to boast, but as technology director at this school, I'm always being asked about laptops, SmartBoards, and other cool and popular education technology things that we have decided not to use. I think it's important to carefully consider how technology can best be used, and to know when to stay with low-tech methods that work well.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#25

Post by charlesju »

I never thought these tests were fair comparisons. The United States has a lot more people than Finland and as a corollary the United States has to help a lot of people get through the educational process that are not as well off as the average citizen of Finland. In other words, we have a lot more ghettos than Finland and that hurts our aggregate scores.

A much more accurate test would be to find those of us in the United States that have been afforded the same living amenities as those living in Finland. I would bet that we are not far off at all.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#26

Post by RyanMcGreal »

yellowbkpk wrote: post #23
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't it? The per-taxpayer cost ratio would remain the same.

As the bureaucracy got bigger, wouldn't it cost more? More levels of management, more paperwork, more time spent on oversight. I don't think the cost/size relationship in any government is linear.

Good point. Still, a system an order of magnitude bigger might be only ten percent more expensive per student.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#27

Post by vdm »

hugh3 wrote: post #4

Genetics? The article doesn't even pause to consider the possibility that Finnish people, a small and relatively isolated population, might just happen to be, on average, genetically just a bit smarter than world population at large. While thinking about these things is horrendously unfashionable, it should be considered before we start assuming that we can replicate their success by copying their school system.

That's a slippery slope, next stop is saying that large poor families are just lazy and want to have sex instead of work and be smart. And that has nothing to do with being PC.

cf. Guns, Germs and Steel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#28

Post by cromulent »

tokenadult wrote: post #13
roboneal wrote: post #3

Summary: 1. Finnish parents read with their children. 2. Low immigration - so "Finnish as a second language" is not a problem there. 3. Education and educators are valued highly by Finnish culture. 4. And contrary to all our K-4 efforts, kids don't start school to 7.

You have provided a good summary of the submitted article, without expressing an opinion on its conclusions. Allow me to respond to quoted point 2. 2. Low immigration - so "Finnish as a second language" is not a problem there. A counterexample to this being especially important is the country Singapore, with four official languages (Modern Standard Chinese, Malay, Tamil, and English in decreasing order of number of h…

Although the article mentions the second language thing, Finland actually has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. All official documents are in both, and street signs are in both, with the local dominant language on top.

They also teach English at the Finnish schools.

My eldest son goes to an English school in Helsinki and he is taught Finnish, French, and of course English.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#29

Post by maxklein »

They may get the best results, but there are a lot of contributions to society that have come from less educated people.

A lot of great athletes, musicians, inventors, generals, etc, have come from societies where the average result is not so high.

Finland may have a high education level - but I could also make the claim that Finland is boring. If everyone gets educated the same, then everyone turns out the same and there is little diversity of thought.

So I really don't think the world should aim towards using the finish system.

Re: Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

#30

Post by r7000 »

Adrock wrote: post #7
hugh3 wrote: post #4

Genetics? The article doesn't even pause to consider the possibility that Finnish people, a small and relatively isolated population, might just happen to be, on average, genetically just a bit smarter than world population at large. While thinking about these things is horrendously unfashionable, it should be considered before we start assuming that we can replicate their success by copying their school system.

Equally unfashionable is the idea that there are advantages to homogeneous societies and classrooms.

Are there any reasons to believe that is relevant?

If you take PISA scores to be a good indicator than there are homogeneous and non-homogeneous societies near the top and bottom.

Canada ranks right up there with Finland every year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA sometimes topping Finland in a category. It is easy to find countries that are culturally homogeneous near the bottom of the rankings as well.

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