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Pardon Snowden

pardonsnowden.org

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#601

Post by mthoms »

BFatts wrote: post #552
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are emboldened to blow the whistle on outrageous, secret, unconstitutional, anti-democratic activities of the US or state governments, then this is the best possible outcome.

However, if people emboldened to get their 5 minutes of fame for releasing some really juicy confidential or top secret info that has nothing to do with [your list here], this is the WORST possible outcome.

In theory, that's what impartial courts are supposed to be for. To make fair judgements on the specifics of each case.

If the public interest and the principles of freedom were served by the leak, then that should be treated very different than a purely self-serving (or dangerous) leak.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#602

Post by heimatau »

RRRA wrote: post #206

If you fear signing this, _and don't_, you really don't understand long risk mitigation and are just preparing yourself to be scared even more in the long run. Just like privacy doesn't exist without others, signing this will at least help by giving strength, and privacy, in numbers. Leaving this resistance alone, as if they were some heroes you respect but won't stand by, is really a cowardly way of being anti socie…

Morality is difficult to stand up for. Civil rights was tough to fight for (still is). The right to privacy and govt transparency in the face of tyranny is another of those difficult battles.

Let's be like the founders and stand up to our government [1].

[1] List of quotes:

- The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." --Patrick Henry

- "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." --George Washington

- "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." --William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783

Re: Pardon Snowden

#603

Post by mthoms »

BFatts wrote: post #558
jtms wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is a problem how?

What if some whistleblower wannabe releases information about the next strike on [pick a target] just because he thinks words are better than weapons and we should "talk it out." What about that kind of problem?

It depends. Are we talking about the constitution being violated in the process?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#605

Post by Jaepa »

spdustin wrote: post #586
peterkelly wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

Got me wondering if one's PGP fingerprint (or other cryptographic fingerprints) are "selectors" in XKEYSCORE

Yeah,I would shocked if it wasn't. Its a unique fingerprint that can be used to collect large amounts of metadata of a subset of the population that is both technically able, not wanting to be listened to.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#606

Post by rayiner »

morgante wrote: post #459
captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

Literally millions of Americans think Snowden should be pardoned. Expressing that belief won't make me a target. That being said, I could see the government trotting it out if there were ever a separate case against you. "captainmuon is already known to harbor sympathies for known traitor Edward Snowden."

I've literally never seen anything like that being trotted out in a case.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#607

Post by strictnein »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #596
strictnein wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the narrative that he tried to follow the rules to get the "egregious" programs stopped is almost entirely false. He may have made one off-the-record attempt with a superior. He also once emailed someone that a test he took had a wrong answer in regards to Executive Orders being able to override laws, and that email got forwarded around until it hit an NSA lawyer and they stated that he was correct. EOs and law…

Watch the Frontline special "The US of Secrets," to find out what happens to those who complained loudly enough.

Yes, I'll watch a multipart documentary to try and suss out the point you want me to learn.

Snowden complained loudly about a test answer. That's it.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#608

Post by Broken_Hippo »

captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

I think about this sort of thing quite often, actually: Your fears are exactly why i've not signed it. I'm American, living in Norway. I don't really plan on living in the states again, but I very much want to be able to visit family. I already wonder if that doesn't put me on some sort of secret list, but there isn't a decent way for me to find out. I don't even feel I have adequate representation anymore - I can vote based on my previous address in the US, but I highly doubt I'd be listened to. Not that it was adequate to begin with, but I at least had the facade.

It is really unnerving truth be told.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#609

Post by spdustin »

woah wrote: post #499
peterkelly wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

Hold on... How is this a chilling effect from mass surveillance? Signing a petition is an act of public announcement that you support something.

It's a chilling effect because the current view in the US is that something as seemingly innocuous as peaceably assembling (virtually in this case) and exercising your right to free speech would possibly result in more data being added to "your permanent record" which, it is believed, has the potential to be used against you in unpredictable ways.

To be more specific, this (let's say) metaphorical file could have entries in it as a result of you signing a petition to pardon Snowden. While such entries could be myriad and varied in detail, I'll pick two hypothetical variations.

1) "Subject exercised right to free speech online."

2) At 1820Z, Subject did willfully and intentionally announce their position against the protection of national security, the lives of US Armed Forces soldiers, the lives of US Intelligence operatives, and the lawmaking authority of the legislative branch of the US Government by supporting an individual charged with espionage. Furthermore, by doing so, Subject did willfully and intentionally foment rebellion within the US general population by the "social proof" of his anti-authoritarian position.

Not knowing if, or which, entry might be made by the mass surveillance of even public forums, where there is no expectation of privacy, is the concern. Not that the speech is public, but that the speech isn't expected to be used in unknowable ways against the speaker.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#610

Post by driverdan »

wehadfun wrote: post #535
clarkmoody wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Heritage Foundation published its Index of Economic Freedom[1], which tracks various factors for many nations. While not a direct analog to personal liberty, economic freedom certainly is something to strive for. Take a look for yourself and see if their rankings make sense. [1]: http://www.heritage.org/index/

You can't even chew gum in Singapore. Australia probably is free if you are not an Aboriginal. Hong Kong Free as long as China doesn't want you. This list is crazy. The free countries are probably all third world but then people are free to literally eat you without punishment.

It's the economic freedom index, not personal liberties index.
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