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Pardon Snowden

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#431

Post by clarkmoody »

krschultz wrote: post #378
clarkmoody wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United State…

Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?

The Heritage Foundation published its Index of Economic Freedom[1], which tracks various factors for many nations. While not a direct analog to personal liberty, economic freedom certainly is something to strive for.

Take a look for yourself and see if their rankings make sense.

[1]: http://www.heritage.org/index/

Re: Pardon Snowden

#432

Post by [deleted] »

tomaskafka wrote: post #420
AsyncAwait wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... It's ironic that given all the valid concerns in your post, you also fell for the oldest piece of propaganda in the book by the very government you're concerned about and that you think that socialism has something to do with dictatorships, rather than it being just an idea that itself has nothing to do with dictatorships in itself, but was in t…

Nazi and socialist ideology is quite close. After all, the S in NSDAP stands for Socialist, and they targeted same voters.

[deleted]

Re: Pardon Snowden

#433

Post by JohnStrange »

BjoernKW wrote: post #93
paulintrognon wrote: post #64

I believe when you wrote "socialist" you meant "authoritarianist"? Please don't mix-up those two concepts

In theory those are different. In practice though there hasn't been a single socialist country that hasn't at least devolved into authoritarianism or even has been so right from the start (Scandinavian Socialism and modern day German Social Market Economy could be considered exceptions but I doubt these can really be considered socialist.). People keep saying: "This isn't true socialism." Well, then true socialism se…

Whenever anyone from the US is involved, there is invariably some confusion between socialism as defined by Marxists and Leninists, and socialism as defined by social democrats. Most people in Europe mean social democracy when they talk about socialism, except when they talk historically, say, about the GDR.

You must always assume that a US citizen does not know that social democracy existed before communism was even invented, and that liberalism has right-wing and left-wing branches.

It is possible to roughly translate between the jargons, though:

US progressive leftists ~ EU democratic socialists

US libertarians ~ EU right wing nutcases, confused anarchists (ardent US libertarians) or slightly confused liberals (moderate US libertarians)

US liberals ~ EU anti-capitalist scum (it's what it means translated, but nobody says that in the EU, of course)

I could go on but prefer to stop here, because there will always be some smartass who thinks he knows better and doesn't realize that words are just words and it's the concepts that count anyway. I'm prepared to get downvoted by butthurt Americans.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#434

Post by yodsanklai »

mangeletti wrote: post #404
yodsanklai wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If socialism isn't authoritarian, that means that people can opt out of social benefits and not have to pay taxes to cover them, right? Without going to jail, right? The same argument goes for the US. All developed countries have taxes and most people agree that they are necessary. I Besides, I don't feel Sweden is more authoritarian than the US because it has higher tax rates or more public services.

Who said anything about the United States not being authoritarian? This is the problem with these uninformed, emotionally-driven debates about ideologies; everybody thinks it's "me vs you", rather than trying to understand anything in depth.

> everybody thinks it's "me vs you", rather than trying to understand anything in depth.

The discussion is courteous. You're free to clarify your thoughts if you think you were misunderstood.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#435

Post by johnhenry »

captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

The fact that the United States government can indiscriminately designate people as being "in trouble" and then use this as an excuse to trample upon their rights. The real trouble is a situation in which Snowden is not pardoned.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#437

Post by downandout »

captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

First the pardon will never happen. Neither Obama nor any other President can or will pardon him, lest they encourage the next Snowden. So signing it will not actually help Snowden.

Second, it's entirely possible that your fears will come true - obviously the government will receive your information and they can use it how they see fit. Not only that, but they appear to be running a co-registration campaign with the ACLU, and you don't know exactly who else will get your name, email, and physical address, or who those people will sell it to. I would be also curious to see what kind of remarketing cookies they are using. You can easily be put in the bucket of "HN users that visited the support Snowden page" and be stalked accordingly by advertisers across millions of Adsense-supported sites, Google search, Facebook, and the general web with just two or three remarketing cookies.

The creators of this site undoubtedly know that their stated goal will never be accomplished. So this looks more like an attempt to build a marketing database of people with a specific viewpoint than anything else.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#438

Post by eternalban »

icecold12741 wrote: post #423
eternalban wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's review the leak: * NSA spies on foreign governments. Isn't that their job? * NSA spies on Americans, & has compromised infrastructure. Your first assumption here is that the ruling elite won't want you to know that. Have you ever considered they wanted you to know without official acknowledgement? Go find an oldhand AT&T geek and ask them about the telephony and NSA. > Regardless of the personalities involved Y…

Another point to be made is that while they say that "much has changed due to his actions" not all has been positive. Several court cases came out after this affirming the idea that you have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" for any internet-facing machine. In fact, the District Court in Virginia this month said that the FBI had the legal right to install malware on the computer of someone who visited a child po…

> "no reasonable expectation of privacy"

Exactly.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#439

Post by bogomipz »

kordless wrote: post #390
clarkmoody wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United State…

I think you are mistaking the resulting meta-consciousness created from the game theory in society and government with individual's based consciousness and some internal intent to deceive. While I would agree the government may try to deceive us, it does so by formally rationalizing government individual's actions as needed to "protect" us from threats. There is likely not one or two people "plotting" out what is hap…

>"... meta-consciousness created from the game theory"

Could you elaborate on what this is?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#440

Post by nabla9 »

tptacek wrote: post #396
nabla9 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This arguments fails to see Snowden in context. Edward Snowden went to the press with revelations because he was aware of the experience of previous whistleblowers. Drake, Binney, Wiebe, Loomis, Roark followed the official channels and reported their concerns within the system. There was intense retaliation against them. They were arreested, fired and charged with crimes that could put them into jail for the rest of…

None of those people were put in jail for the rest of their lives. Binney, Wiebe, Loomis, and Roark were never arrested, let alone charged, let alone "with crimes that could put them into jail for the rest of their lives". Drake was charged --- he was believed to be the source for the NYT's blockbuster story on NSA surveillance --- but those charges were dropped.

>None of those people were put in jail for the rest of their lives.

Prosecutors tried hard to build a case to put them into into prison. They received punitive treatment and bullying, their houses were raided.

They raided Drake's house after he anonymously contacted DoD IG. Someone leaked this confidential information to DoJ. He faced 35 years of imprisonment. The judge in the case had some harsh words against government. https://fas.org/sgp/jud/drake/071511-transcript.pdf

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