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Pardon Snowden

pardonsnowden.org

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#361

Post by flexie »

npiazza83 wrote: post #339
flexie wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment puts Snowden's actions in perspective. He risked his liberty, if not life, so that we could learn about the scope of US mass surveillance. You worry about the risk of being registered as a Snowden sympathizer if you voice your support and the discomfort that might bring with it. Democracy and rule of law doesn't come for free.

To quote a man who was actively surveilled by the US government for much of his later life and no one believed him... "They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason." -Earnest Hemingway

That quote is from "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter" which was published in Esquire in 1935 and was about war (based on his experience from WWI), not about surveillance or about standing up for democracy in times of peace.

FBI opened their file on Hemingway in 1942: https://vault.fbi.gov/ernest-miller-hemingway

Nobody in the US will "die like a dog" for supporting a presidential pardon of Snowden and Hemingway did not suggest that one should stay out of politics.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#362

Post by wildmusings »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #314
wildmusings wrote: post #164

Everyone seems to forget that Snowden didn't just leak information about domestic spying, but also about unquestionably legitimate spying on foreign countries. There's no way he gets a pardon for that.

> unquestionably legitimate Absolutely questionable. There's a concept called "human rights" and just because the US has failed to force unaccountable government agencies into acting in a humane and moral manner doesn't mean that what they're doing is justified. Invasions of privacy on foreign people on such a granular level is abhorrent and that fact hat it's not illegal doesn't mean Snowden did anything wrong by di…

Privacy rights for foreigners do not exist under US law. The US cannot allow people with security clearances to just ignore the law, determine what is right and wrong, and take matters into their own hands. How our government treats people in other countries is a matter for the President and Congress, the elected representatives of the American people.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#364

Post by CamperBob2 »

wtbob wrote: post #283
ekianjo wrote: post #3

Pardonning Snowden while allowing the NSA to continue their business as usual would be strange.

> Pardonning Snowden while allowing the NSA to continue their business as usual would be strange. It would certainly not be symmetrical, since Snowden committed a crime while NSA has not (despite the rather theatrical claims of some).

Lying to Congress isn't a crime? Hmm. I've clearly been misled.

Please consider finding something else to do with your time and/or career. You're helping bad people do bad things, the full scope of which won't become apparent until it's far too late.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#365

Post by JoeAltmaier »

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #346
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got to suggest, emails may not be the way he would communicate concerns. Especially knowing what he did about how email is not private.

> Got to suggest, emails may not be the way he would communicate concerns. Especially knowing what he did about how email is not private. If you want whistle-blower protections, you need to go through official channels and document document document . I am not saying the US has good protections (obviously it doesn't) - but we have to admit that Snowden isn't the model of someone that tried to go through the proper ch…

If you want to disappear without a trace, just use email inside NSA to criticize the NSA and suggest you might be a whistleblower. To get protection, you have to survive first.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#366

Post by alkonaut »

BjoernKW wrote: post #93
paulintrognon wrote: post #64

I believe when you wrote "socialist" you meant "authoritarianist"? Please don't mix-up those two concepts

In theory those are different. In practice though there hasn't been a single socialist country that hasn't at least devolved into authoritarianism or even has been so right from the start (Scandinavian Socialism and modern day German Social Market Economy could be considered exceptions but I doubt these can really be considered socialist.). People keep saying: "This isn't true socialism." Well, then true socialism se…

Everyone disagrees what socialism is. Is Nordic or German social democracy not socialism? Maybe it isn't. But what about all the millions people in those countries that proudly claim to be "socialists" but never ever want to abolish the free market or parliamentary democracy?

"Socialism" can either be a common name for ALL the ideologies that branched from the original throughout history, or it can be a specific ideology that is closer to what we today would call "Communism". It's not entirely clear which is meant, if someone says "socialism" or that they are "socialists".

Re: Pardon Snowden

#368

Post by dsacco »

apk17 wrote: post #196
jahnu wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. And even as a non-U.S. national I worry if it would land me in trouble if I wanted simply to visit the U.S. on holiday again.

Since 9/11 the US already states very explicitly that it doesn't want me as a visitor - I'm not going to go through the (visa) hoops they hold up to me. It was actually administratively much easier to cross the iron curtain in the form of the berlin wall back then than it is now to get into the US (me being german). (This is a bit unfair because there were special regulations for germans inside berlin, and US visas w…

Where does the United States explicitly state that it doesn't want German visitors?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#369

Post by CamperBob2 »

eli wrote: post #244
JMCQ87 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be condoning it. For that, a lot of things would have to change first though, like, for example, the community has to come to the realization that the (supposed) ends do not justify the means and that it's therefore the right thing to do to whistle-blow about them. They also need to realize that the internal mechanisms to whistle-blow are "not effective", to say the least.

You think every IT person in the government should have the ability to disclose any Top Secret programs based only on their own personal opinions about their legality?

They (the three-letter agencies) could always try not breaking the law. See if that cuts down on the number of employees looking to sell them down the river.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#370

Post by whamlastxmas »

wildmusings wrote: post #362
whamlastxmas wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unquestionably legitimate Absolutely questionable. There's a concept called "human rights" and just because the US has failed to force unaccountable government agencies into acting in a humane and moral manner doesn't mean that what they're doing is justified. Invasions of privacy on foreign people on such a granular level is abhorrent and that fact hat it's not illegal doesn't mean Snowden did anything wrong by di…

Privacy rights for foreigners do not exist under US law. The US cannot allow people with security clearances to just ignore the law, determine what is right and wrong, and take matters into their own hands. How our government treats people in other countries is a matter for the President and Congress, the elected representatives of the American people.

Basic rights for a lot of people, even our own citizens, do not exist under US law. Even our own prisoners are denied pretty basic rights (solitary confinement for literally years at a time, sometimes over a decade). Felons who have served their time are denied basic rights (voting) in some states. People have spent over a decade in prison without any sort of due process (from contempt of court, being ordered to do something they couldn't).

The lack of a law forbidding something is not justification for it being acceptable behavior.

>The US cannot allow people... take matters into their own hands

That we have a (flawed) systemic and protected whistleblower system says that the government itself disagrees with you. And save your breath if you're going to try to argue Snowden should have used that system - it wasn't available to him despite people trying to argue otherwise.

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