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Pardon Snowden

pardonsnowden.org

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#51

Post by WilliamDhalgren »

usgroup wrote: post #44
gizmo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edward Snowden is hugely valuable politically because he stood up to the intelligence agencies and survived (so far). Most importantly, we have a moral obligation to get him pardoned. Snowden sacrificed a great deal already. He doesn't need to be martyred, he should be allowed to return home and continue his life.

I'd imagine the US gov will hardly want to encourage whistleblowing of that sort nor a patriotic aire about the act. It is a national security risk regardless of how any individual act pans out.

Oh I'm sure they wouldn't. But there is no risk to national security, as whistleblowing protections only apply to uncovering illegal activities, abuse and similar misconduct.

But who'd want one's security apparatus to be incentivised to follow the rules, right?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#52

Post by JMCQ87 »

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #38

Whatever your opinion on the actual Snowden case - I think pardoning someone is seen to active condone whistle-blowing within the miltary / intelligence community, which I can't see the Government wanting to do.

They should be condoning it. For that, a lot of things would have to change first though, like, for example, the community has to come to the realization that the (supposed) ends do not justify the means and that it's therefore the right thing to do to whistle-blow about them. They also need to realize that the internal mechanisms to whistle-blow are "not effective", to say the least.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#53

Post by aikah »

pearjuice wrote: post #45

Snowden should be put on trial for committing treason. No matter how bad it is what he exposed. He broke the law[0]. What he exposed are policies of the United States by people put in power in a democracy and free country. If you don't want that shit happening in your country, let the people in power know. Go on the streets. Millions of poeple are not happy with what is going on, but literally nothing changed. Sadly,…

> Snowden committed treason

The only people that behaved in a treacherous fashion are the one that are spying on you because for them you're just a criminal by default.

Furthermore he didn't commit treason, he didn't spy for a 3rd party country. He revealed to the world the scope of NSA spying and did everybody a big favor. There is nothing democratic with secret laws and spying. Today you cannot say you don't know and deny reality. But you can choose to ignore it... until the system turns against you. Today if you accept PRISM you become a willing participent and a slave to that system.

What you don't understand is one day, an irresponsible administration will come to power and use all this system for its own personal gain. There is nothing stopping that right now. It's funny how people get all worked up by Facebook censoring some insignificant content when they directly collude with the government to hand over data. So does Google, Yahoo and all big tech companies in US.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#54

Post by rspeer »

hughperkins wrote: post #28
r3bl wrote: post #9

Holy hell! Looking at the supporters page ( https://www.pardonsnowden.org/supporters ) I do have to admit that they've acquired support from some people that I never thought to see there, like Steve Wozniak, Noam Chomsky, and George Soros.

According to the comment just above yours, those "signatures" are unauthenticated?

This isn't about signatures or authentication, the site says outright that those people are supporters.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#55

Post by WilliamDhalgren »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #31
WilliamDhalgren wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, from a political point of view, Snowden is just a guy, and he did what he could do already. Pardoned or shot dead, makes little difference now (well, chilling effect is certainly even worse if the latter happened tomorrow, but its bad enough as it is). The important thing would be wistleblower protection laws changes that would protect a future Snowden from this situation.

> Pardoned or shot dead, makes little difference now Law is built on precedent. This is how a two-hundred year old law about papers in one's house was used to try and pry open an iPhone. It is also why people get rightly indignant about seemingly small things. In the specific context of the data Snowden exfiltrated, you are correct - a pardon changes little. But for the next Snowden? Or the political climate surround…

yeah, its what it does for the next Snowden that's most important here-- but that's why I suggested actual legal reform is necessary.

How can a pardon set a precedent? Its an act of an executive, not a court? It would be up to whoever is the president when the next Snowden occurs to grant clemence or no at their total executive discretion, no? So how's that a precedent? And how comforting it would be to the next Snowden that his life is at the whim of the current president to grant or take should he go through with a leak.

Or am I misunderstanding how the US legal system works?

I have to grant you're completely right about the political climate though. No legislative change will happen w/o a wide perception that the party at fault is the NSA here, and Snowden's action heroic and justified and hence worthy of legal protection. And a pardon would help in establishing that.

I'm really amazed how negatively he's percieved in the US apparently.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#56

Post by JMCQ87 »

r3bl wrote: post #9

Holy hell! Looking at the supporters page ( https://www.pardonsnowden.org/supporters ) I do have to admit that they've acquired support from some people that I never thought to see there, like Steve Wozniak, Noam Chomsky, and George Soros.

The only one I find surprising among those three is Soros. He's a pretty Janus-faced individual though in general, so... maybe shouldn't even find that surprising anymore.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#57

Post by gizmo »

usgroup wrote: post #44
gizmo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edward Snowden is hugely valuable politically because he stood up to the intelligence agencies and survived (so far). Most importantly, we have a moral obligation to get him pardoned. Snowden sacrificed a great deal already. He doesn't need to be martyred, he should be allowed to return home and continue his life.

I'd imagine the US gov will hardly want to encourage whistleblowing of that sort nor a patriotic aire about the act. It is a national security risk regardless of how any individual act pans out.

Stripping whistleblowers from their constitutional rights and condemning them to a lifetime in prison is arguably a worse national security risk.

A society needs layers of checks and balances, and whistleblowing is one such layer. When whistleblowing is penalized so harshly you create an environment of unchecked power. Citizens can't do anything because even when they know they're being lied to, they need to know the specifics of what's going on in order to protest effectively. Because as we've now learned even the elected representatives get sidelined, so they're pretty much useless.

Realistically speaking, how much damage can one whistleblower really do when they have no malicious intent? Not much. What are the negative consequences of unchecked power? Effectively unlimited.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#60

Post by captainmuon »

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being targeted for more intense data collection by the NSA?

God, I hate how quickly you can get paranoid these days. A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US...

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