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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#251

Post by dredmorbius »

imgabe wrote: post #161
gxs wrote: post #97

I'm really torn on this for the same reason I'm torn on what to do with the people in jail for marijuana offenses: On the one hand, yes what's happening is wrong. On the other hand, you CHOSE to go into debt knowing that you would have to repay it after you graduated. Just like people who CHOSE to deal marijuana KNEW it is illegal. Disagreeing with the law doesn't entitle you to break it. Similarly, disagreeing with…

You would seriously keep people in jail for marijuana charges after marijuana was legalized? If a mistake is made, remedy the mistake. The government made a mistake in providing a glut of cheap money and prohibiting the borrowers from discharging the debt in bankruptcy. They need to fix their mistake by undoing that. What you're proposing is like abolishing slavery, except for everyone who is currently a slave. "Sorr…

That description bears similarities to how slavery was constrained in the US: The international slave trade was abolished in 1800, but existing slaves, and their children, could still be kept, bought, and sold, until 1863.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#252

Post by stevenkovar »

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

To me, the issue started when college became about securing a career over expanding / exploring intellectual horizons.

The result of this transition incentivizes the wrong output: instead of kids coming out of college able to freely think for themselves, now they come out begging for direction.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#253

Post by branchless »

morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

The problem is the credit. The state underwrites all loans so more people go to uni. It reaches a critical mass where all employees start demanding a degree before you can even speak to them. At this point would-be-graduates know degrees are often not worth it but they become a toll tax. You have to pay for the degree or you can't play.

Really I don't blame young people for this. There are too many degrees and too much money is being created to pay for them. The state loves this, it creates lots of money and it ties people into debt which seems to be the entire aim of western states now as they want to work people hard all the time. If you attain financial independence through non-debt you might decide not to work 40 hours a week. Then the establishment can't cream off your labour, and they hate that.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#254

Post by stevenkovar »

morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

I think it's fine to subsidize education through government programs.

Instead, remove the standard of requiring certain levels of education. Perhaps require industry-specific credentials that can be earned through exam or internship for most jobs. College should be about personal exploration over career preparation—at least in the bachelors level.

Students can complete credentials as part of their final semester Senior curriculum or on their own time.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#255

Post by fzzzy »

gregatragenet3 wrote: post #228
jonahrd wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be right that it's a poor financial decision, but I still hope to one day live in a country where people can pursue education in any subject matter (not just STEM/other money makers) for the pure purpose of educational fulfillment. That can only be done with a system that helps pay for education instead of letting the market decide which degrees are most valuable in terms of pure capitalistic measures

What if I want to pursue an education in driving luxury cars and sailing yachts? Is that a valid subject matter? And if not, what makes it a less valid subject matter than any other degree that costs money but does not have a clear path to recouping the investment? Who decides?

I'd like to sign up for "Driving Luxury Cars and Sailing Yachts 101" please. These are vital life skills I require.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#256

Post by trentmb »

deegles wrote: post #200
morgante wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them) Like I said in my comment, I recognize that there needs to be some option for people who can't possibly repay their student loans. Defaulting on your mortgage is not consequence-free: you lose your home and hurt your credit. We don't let people just forgive their mortgages and keep their homes without hurting their…

How would one repossess an education? Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?

It's possible for colleges to rescind degrees, so if you wanted to be particularly evil you could go down that route.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#257

Post by jazzyk »

vkou wrote: post #131
jazzyk wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at my daughter's textbook at a top-20 college in the US, I was stunned. She took a (core) class in philosophy/psychology. Very little time was spent on classics (ancient philosophers, Kant, Hegel, Freud, etc.) They were replaced by contemporary researchers (often from the same university), often with a VERY extreme, one-sided, politicized agenda (feminist, etc.). Pretty sad.

It's a shame that a well rounded education doesn't solely consist of studying entirely apolitical, classic European thinkers. It's almost as if there is more to the world than Central and Mediterranean Europe. And heaven forbid, students get exposed to radical ideas in their philosophy classes. We can't have any of that, here.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder - I said ancient philosophers, the list of names was not meant to be exhaustive, just a few, to give the reader an idea. Of course one would include Confucius, Buddha, etc in that list. A short post cannot be as precise as a dissertation.

Students are already exposed to too many radical ideas (supported by current political interests), which REPLACED the basics/foundations - that was my point.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#258

Post by yequalsx »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #244
yequalsx wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the public benefits of a physics degree exceed those of a women's studies degree then the former should be subsidized but not the latter? What if the former's benefit exceeds the latter's benefit by an epsilon amount? By your reasoning only the most beneficial degree should be subsidized but not any others. Perhaps you typed in haste and did not mean what you wrote in a strict sense. I don't believe one can really…

To be more precise, what I meant is that both should only be subsidize to whatever degree they create external benefits. I.e., if a physics degree has $5k external benefit and a women's studies degree $5, then the physics degree deserves 1000x more subsidies. And once you factor in the harms caused by signalling, it's far from clear it's even a net positive. The benefits of an educated populace are manifest and, I be…

The external benefits are quite clear to me. That they are not clear to you suggests to me that nothing I write or say will change your mind. So what's the point of asking me to list them? Are you merely trying to see if I understand the concept of a external benefits or genuinely trying know what possible external benefit there could be with someone being provided a subsidized education? I think you can think of some.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#259

Post by dragonwriter »

deegles wrote: post #200
morgante wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them) Like I said in my comment, I recognize that there needs to be some option for people who can't possibly repay their student loans. Defaulting on your mortgage is not consequence-free: you lose your home and hurt your credit. We don't let people just forgive their mortgages and keep their homes without hurting their…

How would one repossess an education? Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?

> How would one repossess an education?

You can't.

> Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?

No.

First, student loans are, in fact, dischargeable, though there is a higher bar to discharging them. So expalanations of why they are not dischargeable are unnecessary (and necessarily incorrect.)

But, more to the point, unsecured loans in general are dischargeable without the heightened requirements that apply to student loans; not having something to repossess isn't a difference between student loans and other unsecured loans, so cannot explain the difference in treatment.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#260

Post by mattmanser »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #208
morgante wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them) Like I said in my comment, I recognize that there needs to be some option for people who can't possibly repay their student loans. Defaulting on your mortgage is not consequence-free: you lose your home and hurt your credit. We don't let people just forgive their mortgages and keep their homes without hurting their…

> We should treat student loan debt like any other debt. We should! There's no asset to secure the debt, so just mark the trade line as unpaid/collections and have it be a black mark for 7 years. If Congress isn't going to fix this, Millenials can max out unsecured credit, pay off their student loans, and then go bankrupt on the unsecured debt; 7-10 years of bad credit is better than the federal government pursuing y…

7 years for a bad decision made when you were 18?

That seems incredibly harsh.

Then again, you Americans really don't believe in rehabilitation do you.

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