Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief • Hacker News Board

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#241

Post by tuna-piano » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:27 PM UTC

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

The other irony is that when college is paid for by taxes of the entire society, both those who went to college and those who didn't, the ones who didn't go to college end up paying for those who did. Net, it's literally a transfer from the non-college educated people to the college-educated people. Absolutely insane.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#242

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:27 PM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #240

toomuchtodo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR The health of the economy is more important than your moral high ground. Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them), but we'll still give them a mortgage 3 years after their foreclosure; the economy needs the monetary velocity to survive.

>TL;DR The health of the economy is more important than your moral high ground. Will the economy be more healthy? I see little evidence for the assertion. It's possible the damage done by all that debt cancellation will be greater than any benefit.

Student loan debt that can't be discharged drags down discretionary spending, spending which drives the economy.

Cancelling the debt might cause a negligible amount of inflation.

http://www.businessinsider.com/3-charts-explain-the-effect-o...

http://time.com/10577/student-loans-are-ruining-your-life-no...

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#243

Post by readhn » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:29 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #123

readhn wrote: post #108

The only recent grads (within 5 years) with student debt in my circles who could afford and have bought a house recently are: 1. Doctor & Finance couple with combined income $400,000+/year 2. Pharmacist & Finance couple with combined income $200,000+/year 3. Science Research & Quant(finance) couple with combined income $300,000+/year Interestingly - all have finance or medical field/science exposure.. The rest are re…

While I agree with your sentiment in general, do you really think it's normal to be in a house 5 years after graduating? That's still "first steps of my career" phase. Completely unheard of even when I was growing up where I'm from - you would have been seen as doing very well to own a home in your mid/late-20's.

ummm, Doctor - med school + residency and you are almost 30 + 5 years gets you to close to mid 30's of age

Finance - MS followed by work followed by MBA takes you to 30 years + 5 years again close to mid 30's

So no, im not talking 25 year olds.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#244

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #236

yummyfajitas wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to claim education has positive externalities, then make that case. But that's a little hard to square with BenElgar's idea that subsidizing some degrees more than others is "damaging". His comment argued nothing about externalities. After all, if it turns out that the public external benefits of a physics degree exceed those of a women's studies degree, then the former should be subsidized but not the la…

If the public benefits of a physics degree exceed those of a women's studies degree then the former should be subsidized but not the latter? What if the former's benefit exceeds the latter's benefit by an epsilon amount? By your reasoning only the most beneficial degree should be subsidized but not any others. Perhaps you typed in haste and did not mean what you wrote in a strict sense. I don't believe one can really…

To be more precise, what I meant is that both should only be subsidize to whatever degree they create external benefits. I.e., if a physics degree has $5k external benefit and a women's studies degree $5, then the physics degree deserves 1000x more subsidies.

And once you factor in the harms caused by signalling, it's far from clear it's even a net positive.

The benefits of an educated populace are manifest and, I believe, clearly worth the expense of public financial support.

The external benefits are far from clear.

If a person is educated and becomes a doctor, and then fixes my spine in return for money, the benefit is clear. But that benefit is fully captured by myself and the doctor, and he factored the cost of education into the price he charged me.

Can you name what the external benefit (i.e. benefits captured by third parties) is, for both medical education, physics education and women's studies?

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#245

Post by gregatragenet3 » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

Why is shelling out six figures to go to college even a thing? Any of the knowledge obtainable through a college course is available free on the internet. Is it having the accountability of grades and adult supervision? 60k/yr/student seems like a lot of mark up for repackaging knowledge which is free in a format consumable by the average high school grad. This this is a market waiting to get disrupted.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#246

Post by vkou » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:31 PM UTC

marris wrote: post #223

vkou wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those old ideas provide a very occicentric, and, by extension, biased framework for understanding the world. There are plenty of old ideas that are excluded by what most universities define to be classical education - yet the complaints are about lack of coverage for Kant and Plato, rather then, say Confuscius, or Cornel West. (For examples both less, and more relevant to modern thought.) The complaint was directed a…

What are the politics of Kant and Plato?

What are the politics of Karl Marx?

Plato's views on government, and condemnation of democracy are quite clearly laid out in the Republic.

Kant writings have plenty to say about freedom vis-a-vis government, state power, rights of property, revolutions, warfare.

None of these great minds existed in an apolitical, unbiased vacuum, where they could devote themselves to nothing but free thought.

When it comes to education, my impression is that people use the term 'apolitical' to describe political opinions that happen to align with their own. Hence, Hobbes and Locke are apolitical - whereas feminist philosophy so frequently is. Adam Smith? Apolitical. Karl Marx? Political.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#247

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:31 PM UTC

marris wrote: post #223

vkou wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those old ideas provide a very occicentric, and, by extension, biased framework for understanding the world. There are plenty of old ideas that are excluded by what most universities define to be classical education - yet the complaints are about lack of coverage for Kant and Plato, rather then, say Confuscius, or Cornel West. (For examples both less, and more relevant to modern thought.) The complaint was directed a…

What are the politics of Kant and Plato?

[deleted]

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#248

Post by gxs » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #161

gxs wrote: post #97

I'm really torn on this for the same reason I'm torn on what to do with the people in jail for marijuana offenses: On the one hand, yes what's happening is wrong. On the other hand, you CHOSE to go into debt knowing that you would have to repay it after you graduated. Just like people who CHOSE to deal marijuana KNEW it is illegal. Disagreeing with the law doesn't entitle you to break it. Similarly, disagreeing with…

You would seriously keep people in jail for marijuana charges after marijuana was legalized? If a mistake is made, remedy the mistake. The government made a mistake in providing a glut of cheap money and prohibiting the borrowers from discharging the debt in bankruptcy. They need to fix their mistake by undoing that. What you're proposing is like abolishing slavery, except for everyone who is currently a slave. "Sorr…

Your response doesn't make any sense. Throw a hissy fit all you want about your pot, but you KNOW it's illegal and if you choose to ignore that that's on you.

Same as with loans. You choose to take out the loan, that's on you.

If I choose to run my car into a crowd I suffer the consequences, not Chrysler. (And yes, I realize this analogy isn't perfect)

And comparing this to slavery is plain stupid. That is an issue much greater than this regarding equality for everyone. You didn't have a choice to be born a slave.

And here I don't even necessarily agree with not helping these people - I just want the issue addressed of where we draw the line between poor decision making and poor choices.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#249

Post by beachstartup » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

MrQuincle wrote: post #213

morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

Schools can charge a lot because other people pay a lot. As individual you cannot single-handedly decide to pay less. Compared to Europe the education system in the US looks like a system that is trying to get as much money out of young adults as possible rather than getting as many people as possible an affordable education.

> Compared to Europe the education system in the US looks like a system that is trying to get as much money out of young adults as possible rather than getting as many people as possible an affordable education.

the private college system is what you are describing.

the community college and public university system does exactly that, but nobody talks about it, because it's un-glamorous and un-dramatic.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#250

Post by branchless » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

gregatragenet3 wrote: post #245

Why is shelling out six figures to go to college even a thing? Any of the knowledge obtainable through a college course is available free on the internet. Is it having the accountability of grades and adult supervision? 60k/yr/student seems like a lot of mark up for repackaging knowledge which is free in a format consumable by the average high school grad. This this is a market waiting to get disrupted.

Leaving aside whether degrees add value or not, the perception is that they do and it absolves hiring managers some responsibility.

If you work for a big company and you have an ivy league grad and a guy from a conference you met who seems promising do you:

a) hire the ivy guy and if he is crap mumble about youth today b) hire the random guy who screws up and everyone blames you ?

Both get hired at low wages as starters, you might save a bit on the random person but not that much. Plus if he is good he'll want a rise.

Large corporations are about sitting nice and still and not messing up.

I'm not sure it's the market, it's the consumers of the product in our world where managing perception in large companies which often have monopolies is more important that cranking stuff out. Not always, but often.