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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#221

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

morgante wrote: post #211
deegles wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would one repossess an education? Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?

Like toomuchtodo mentions, we could treat it like other unsecured debt (like credit card debt). Just because it's unsecured doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to discharge it with bankruptcy. Get the government out of the loan business and the market will correct itself. You won't be able to get a loan for a useless degree and if you end up being unable to pay off your loan you can go through normal bankruptcy proceed…

Upvoted. But. The argument against this could be that due to the unsecured nature of the six-figure (potentially) debt the free market rates will be insane effectively reducing access to higher ed for those who can't afford it without the loans.

Then again, if less ppl could afford a degree in Queer Musicology (does exist - https://www.musicology.ucla.edu/mission-and-history-1) or let's say Environmental Studies etc maybe the supply and demand would even out so that'll be a good thing.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#222

Post by morgante »

chumich1 wrote: post #220
morgante wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, there is a line to draw on how much debt to put on someone. Yes, people should decide how much debt they want to take on. There are vast differences in the value of different degrees (cost and earnings). It's people's responsibility to educate themselves. The rest of us shouldn't have to subsidize someone's terrible decision to go into debt for a degree in basket-weaving.

Should we be expecting the average 17-year old to be make sound financial decisions? Especially given how much money is involved.

Yes, we should. The average college freshman is 18 years old.

If you're old enough to drive a car, join the army, or be charged as an adult, you're old enough to realize that paying tens of thousands of dollars for a degree in musical theater isn't a great idea.

It's not rocket science. There are tons of resources online to help you figure out which degrees and schools are good value.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#223

Post by marris »

vkou wrote: post #192
FT_intern wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author's criticism was about replacement of old ideas, not addition of new ideas

Those old ideas provide a very occicentric, and, by extension, biased framework for understanding the world. There are plenty of old ideas that are excluded by what most universities define to be classical education - yet the complaints are about lack of coverage for Kant and Plato, rather then, say Confuscius, or Cornel West. (For examples both less, and more relevant to modern thought.) The complaint was directed a…

What are the politics of Kant and Plato?

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#224

Post by vaishaksuresh »

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

The problem with the jobs you're listing is that they are tied to the individual's physical health and capability. A 50 year old guy can sit at a desk and work, but many 50 year olds don't want to go fixing roofs. Sure they can run a business and hire other plumbers/roofers, but then they are doing desk job again.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#225

Post by feklar »

morgante wrote: post #211
deegles wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would one repossess an education? Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?

Like toomuchtodo mentions, we could treat it like other unsecured debt (like credit card debt). Just because it's unsecured doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to discharge it with bankruptcy. Get the government out of the loan business and the market will correct itself. You won't be able to get a loan for a useless degree and if you end up being unable to pay off your loan you can go through normal bankruptcy proceed…

Would tuition also follow by being more affordable? The government guarantees loans for everybody so institutions jack up their fees accordingly it seems.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#227

Post by ThrustVectoring »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #20
icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

>> Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". I think another part of it is that even low level office jobs now require some sort…

>I think another part of it is that even low level office jobs now require some sort of degree simply because everybody has one.

This is the key problem - education is often positional good, since not every job seeker can be better educated than the others.

>One solution might be to only offer loans for degrees that lead to a job (doctor, lawyer, architect etc.) and consider things like History or Music a luxury.

Better is to make asking about and providing your college background illegal, with some exceptions for doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#228

Post by gregatragenet3 »

jonahrd wrote: post #184
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

You may be right that it's a poor financial decision, but I still hope to one day live in a country where people can pursue education in any subject matter (not just STEM/other money makers) for the pure purpose of educational fulfillment. That can only be done with a system that helps pay for education instead of letting the market decide which degrees are most valuable in terms of pure capitalistic measures

What if I want to pursue an education in driving luxury cars and sailing yachts? Is that a valid subject matter? And if not, what makes it a less valid subject matter than any other degree that costs money but does not have a clear path to recouping the investment? Who decides?

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#229

Post by CyberDildonics »

bsbechtel wrote: post #182
toomuchtodo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR The health of the economy is more important than your moral high ground. Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them), but we'll still give them a mortgage 3 years after their foreclosure; the economy needs the monetary velocity to survive.

>>When the Fed could just poof more money into existence? I hope you realize it doesn't quite work like that.

Right. "Buying 0 interest treasuries" is what the Bank of Japan calls it.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#230

Post by pjschlic »

metaphorm wrote: post #212
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

> Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? you've got a serious lack of perspective if that's what you think this is

Could I ask for a little clarification about your critique? I understand what his perspective is: socializing the cost is a moral hazard (people will make different decisions if they don't have to pay the cost of them). That's the perspective I assume GP has, as I feel similarly.

If what you are implying is that the eventual result of non-forgiveness is access to education only for the wealthy, I would disagree - there are other options, none of which are perfect that I'm aware. That said, I'm trying to figure out what reasoned argument you might be making with this statement which might be an exercise in futility.

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