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IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

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Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#41

Post by crux »

david927 wrote: post #26

Woz has always about being open and modular and extensible. Jobs has always been about the opposite -- and for good reason; the early Macs were typically more stable and functioned better simply because of that lock-in. But history has played this over and over again, and Woz always wins. Vendors work out standards; the user experience consolidates. If you give people the freedom and trust them, they'll work it out.…

What's with this constant invoking of the 'faithful'? I work at a place that sells the iPad and I've had a lot of people ask me about it. The people who are buying the iPad aren't exactly fanboys, who have been slavering over anything that Apple would put out. They're normal folks. A lot of them don't know any real specifics about the iPad, but they have the feeling that it would really be more enjoyable to use than their netbook. The notion that these Apple products only have niche appeal (because normal people value functionality and openness over prettiness) is kind of bonkers in the face of the extremely strong mainstream popularity of the various iPods as well as the iPhone.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#42

Post by whyenot »

gte910h wrote: post #30
tumult wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't. Stop repeating this lie. They reject App Store applications which allow users to load in external code which is executed.

You're wrong. Read section 3.3.2 of http://www.eff.org/files/20100302_iphone_dev_agr.pdf Search the document for "interpreted code" They expressly forbid it except for "included interpreters" aka javascript. So hypercard is out of the running.

Corona SDK http://anscamobile.com/corona/ is Lua underneath, and has been used by quite a few (at least 20) approved iPhone apps.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#43

Post by rbanffy »

gte910h wrote: post #30
tumult wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't. Stop repeating this lie. They reject App Store applications which allow users to load in external code which is executed.

You're wrong. Read section 3.3.2 of http://www.eff.org/files/20100302_iphone_dev_agr.pdf Search the document for "interpreted code" They expressly forbid it except for "included interpreters" aka javascript. So hypercard is out of the running.

> So hypercard is out of the running.

Unless you reimplement it in JavaScript

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#44

Post by houseabsolute »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #40
houseabsolute wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's just tune in and watch the sales of the iPad starting next month We already watched the sales of the iPhone, and we saw how that went. Same type of device, same type of complaints by openness advocate, and what was the result? Are you guys going to just keep on saying this stuff until some closed Apple product fails, then say that's proof that people want openness, ignoring the litany of preceding closed devi…

iPhone market share is respectable but hardly dominant: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/the_truth_about_apple...

Granted, but irrelevant to the claim I was making. Also I'd like to point out that that's one device on (normally) one carrier per country, being pushed by only one company. The others are all being pushed by consortiums or multiple phone companies and are available normally on all carriers yet they still lag behind.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#45

Post by abstractbill »

houseabsolute wrote: post #35
samd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consumer isn't choosing the iPhone or iPad because it is closed, they are choosing it because it is easy to use, sexy, and supported by lots of apps. You can still have those things and be open, and Android is proving it.

Android is neither as easy to use or as sexy as the iPhone. The dismal sales of the nexus one despite it's superior spec sheet and androidness are proof of this. But I do agree with you, most people buy things out of which they get the most utility, and ease of use an sexiness are a big part of that. But the person I was responding to mad the claim that people won't buy the ipad because it is closed. It would only be…

I think the effect is real, but of course it's not as direct as this. Now that the iPhone has a viable competitor that's more developer friendly, it seems likely that apps will start to appear first on Android, and then only later on the iPhone. I think that might effect consumers' perception of which is the sexier device.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#46

Post by orangecat »

_delirium wrote: post #20

By these standards, hasn't Steve Jobs been notching up final victories over Woz for at least 25 years? In fact, I'm pretty sure I've read people claiming it repeatedly! As far back as the early 80s, the Mac marks the turning point where Apple became primarily focused on a self-contained, don't-touch-the-tech computing appliance. The introduction of the Mac, and the way it won out over the Apple II successors, also ma…

It's not as if this is a recent idea Apple's had.

No Macs ever prevented you from running and distributing whatever software you wanted. And while there wasn't a command line before OS X, there were a great deal of opportunities for hacking via extensions, ResEdit, HyperCard, etc.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#47

Post by houseabsolute »

abstractbill wrote: post #34
houseabsolute wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's just tune in and watch the sales of the iPad starting next month We already watched the sales of the iPhone, and we saw how that went. Same type of device, same type of complaints by openness advocate, and what was the result? Are you guys going to just keep on saying this stuff until some closed Apple product fails, then say that's proof that people want openness, ignoring the litany of preceding closed devi…

Android gained 5.2% of the US smartphone market between December 2009 and February 2010, while the iPhone lost 0.1% ( http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=9184 ). Of course I'm not going to declare the iPhone a failure - it's clearly done very well. But I think it's still a little early to call it a winner.

In all likelihood both will continue to be part of the mobile ecosystem for some time, or until Google gets tired of throwing money at the problem.

But as I said to another responder, the iPhone is one device on one carrier per country, and Android is many devices on all carriers. They are hardly on equal footing for a purely numerical battle for superiority, but still iPhone is winning.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#48

Post by houseabsolute »

abstractbill wrote: post #45
houseabsolute wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is neither as easy to use or as sexy as the iPhone. The dismal sales of the nexus one despite it's superior spec sheet and androidness are proof of this. But I do agree with you, most people buy things out of which they get the most utility, and ease of use an sexiness are a big part of that. But the person I was responding to mad the claim that people won't buy the ipad because it is closed. It would only be…

I think the effect is real, but of course it's not as direct as this. Now that the iPhone has a viable competitor that's more developer friendly, it seems likely that apps will start to appear first on Android, and then only later on the iPhone. I think that might effect consumers' perception of which is the sexier device.

Seems like if that were going to happen it would have happened already, or we'd at least have seen some sign of a sea-change. Yet the ports still flow in the opposite direction (when developers even bother). Maybe because Android appeals to the spendthrift, and iPhone to people more open with their wallets?

The other explanation is that iPhone is plenty open to developers who make the types of apps people want to buy, and closed only to the tinkerers who would not have been making salable apps anyway.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#49

Post by wmf »

drenei wrote: post #39
wmf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has everyone forgot how cellphones were black boxes before the iPhone? I must have forgotten that because it isn't true. On my P800 or Blackberry I could install any app, not just approved ones. (Edit: I wonder if this meme about the "cell phone dark ages" comes from the millions of people who switched from dumbphones to iPhone and thus aren't personally familiar with the actual smartphone state of the art circa 2006…

I can't speak for where you are, but here in North America (well Canada & the USA) to go from [cell phone customized for service provider] to [cell phone customized for you with apps that you selected to use] was never a simple process - perhaps easier on a blackberry but not simple. The device makers simply didn't have enough leverage to make the process simple.

I am in the USA and IIRC there was no "process" with my T-Mobile Blackberry; I could install any app I wanted directly from the Web browser. Maybe that's some kind of exception since T-Mobile is the least evil carrier.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#50

Post by orangecat »

houseabsolute wrote: post #35
samd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consumer isn't choosing the iPhone or iPad because it is closed, they are choosing it because it is easy to use, sexy, and supported by lots of apps. You can still have those things and be open, and Android is proving it.

Android is neither as easy to use or as sexy as the iPhone. The dismal sales of the nexus one despite it's superior spec sheet and androidness are proof of this. But I do agree with you, most people buy things out of which they get the most utility, and ease of use an sexiness are a big part of that. But the person I was responding to mad the claim that people won't buy the ipad because it is closed. It would only be…

Android is neither as easy to use or as sexy as the iPhone. The dismal sales of the nexus one despite it's superior spec sheet and androidness are proof of this.

It's silly to use Nexus One sales as proof of anything because it's had almost no marketing. The Droid has sold far better: http://blog.flurry.com/bid/31410/Day-74-Sales-Apple-iPhone-v...

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