Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#461

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #438

PavlovsCat wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An emphatic male absolutely does know more about what "women are going through" than, say, a narcissistic female just parroting lines she saw work for others, ripping other females to shreds as she strives for power. If you honestly have not ever seen that , keep your eyes peeled. If anything, I'd say privilege based on treating people as abstract monoliths and having double standards, and being unfair and abusive to…

> emphatic male absolutely does know more about what "women are going through" than Did you mean a different word here? Because as far as I've seen, the emphatic males are the biggest problem in this context. > You know nothing about what others think about, what they know or don't know. Do you recognize the multiple ironies in this statement? Yes, I'm generalizing. That is a necessity in discussions about broad char…

> For example, when walking at night in my urban neighborhood, I go well out of my way to give women a lot of space, to not walk too close to them for too long. I'll slow down, pass them, cross the street, get on a different train car, or take an alternate route altogether. Why?

I do the same on long stretches of walk at night etc., but generally? Whenever I pass a woman in broad daylight I have to get away to make sure she doesn't feel threatened? Ever heard of body language, ever heard of not BEING a threat and so lively a person that the situations where you have to worry about this become rather rare?

> And giving women a different sort of room is what I was arguing for above.

How about this: ask them if they want to be treated like a wounded animal. Don't just presume. Or even better, read their body language, too. It's not rocket science, and compared to that your "useful correlations" are like trying to build a CPU with a bucket of sand and a spoon. It's not that I don't know all you say, it's that I know more. Allow for that possibility.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#462

Post by Programmatic » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 11:00 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #344

hnbroseph wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also sad that you can't just call someone to netflix and chill....right?

No, because it's a universal tongue-in-cheek way to state you want to have sex. "Cup of coffee" to "I want to fuck " however, is a stretch.

http://explosm.net/comics/2034/

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#463

Post by belorn » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 1:08 AM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #454

belorn wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an American also, as my view is based on the Swedish work market and culture. When I say nurse is a less desired job, I mean that in the number of student applications and average grade requirements. That is not to say that nurse profession is an unattractive job. It just that all professions are not equally desired, and statistics on student choice and student competition reflects that. Btw, nurse profession in…

In Norway next to Sweden, nurse is three years "høgskole" after three years "videregående". Same goes for engineer (except "sivilingeniør" which is another two years on top of that). Welder or carpenter is two years of "videregående" and then 2 (or more?) years as apprentice. So Nurse or engineer: 6 years study. Welder, carpenter etc: 2 years study + 2 years as apprentice.

> engineer (except "sivilingeniør

Civil, which stands for civilian, is in contrast with the other form of engineer which is military engineer.

Maybe you are thinking of technician and not engineer. That is 4 years in Sweden, with 2 additional years to make it to technician specialist or civil engineer within a specialist area.

Engineer, medical doctors and specialists: 6 years or higher.

Nurse, technicians, plumbers, and the vast majority of professions covered under higher education: 4 years.

"yrekshögskola (YH)": 2 years or less.

The title of this discussion is "ask a female engineer", not "ask a female technician". My initial statement stands that we should compare master degree professions with other master degree professions, and bachelor's degree professions with other bachelor's degree professions. Further more, looking for similar educational requirements within each group would further narrow down suitable professions to compare.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#464

Post by 32wattle_park » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 4:47 AM UTC

redDictionary wrote: post #22

I would like to ask a female engineer some things. 1) do you think there are more men in engineering exclusively as a result of men being prejudiced against women? 2) do you think your male co-workers are less qualified to be engineers because they were hired for their gender? 3) one of the engineers in this article said she felt uncomfortable being aware of being the only female. Can anyone explain what causes the d…

Hi, I was a female engineer many moons ago. I stopped doing CS related for a while but now am back in the industry. Here are my answers: 1. Short answer no. CS industry has grown very fast, faster than the human to catch up. In the early day, lots of companies employee anyone with any tech skills (no matter how little experiences they have) just to keep up with the growth. So in the beginning, someone (usually men) who worked as a field tech (eg. putting cables in someone's home) could land a job in the CS with higher salary. Where women tend to enter CS after they graduated from universities. These men used to work with other men and not used to work with women. So they created a very tough environment for women to enter. I had good experiences with younger co-workers who also graduated from universities. We could talk the same lingo and had civilised discussion. But the older men were harder to work with, they had different work ethics too. For them it was a politic games, not getting the job done. I also find that workers from India are gender bias. There are few Australian companies that have Indian managers or even higher, and there are no female tech engineers in their teams. 2. Based on my experiences, the older ones (in the 90s) were hired because for their gender. The yonger male co-workers who graduated from universities had more opportunities to get better pay, better projects (more interesting and technical), more training. These might answer why Australia is still behind in the tech world. Australia has not capitalized on the other 50% of the population. Australian companies would rather hire someone from overseas (places like India) than an Australian female CS graduate. The foreign workers may be cheaper and could fill the positions faster, but they are not necessarily better at doing the job. I believe Australia's universities have higher quality CS education than India's universities. 3. No, I never felt uncomfortable being the only female. My explanation would be that she came from different culture.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#465

Post by reitanqild » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #463

reitanqild wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway next to Sweden, nurse is three years "høgskole" after three years "videregående". Same goes for engineer (except "sivilingeniør" which is another two years on top of that). Welder or carpenter is two years of "videregående" and then 2 (or more?) years as apprentice. So Nurse or engineer: 6 years study. Welder, carpenter etc: 2 years study + 2 years as apprentice.

> engineer (except "sivilingeniør Civil, which stands for civilian, is in contrast with the other form of engineer which is military engineer. Maybe you are thinking of technician and not engineer. That is 4 years in Sweden, with 2 additional years to make it to technician specialist or civil engineer within a specialist area. Engineer, medical doctors and specialists: 6 years or higher. Nurse, technicians, plumbers,…

For some reason I know a bit about Norwegian education and engineering degrees especially. ;-)

The degree I'm talking about is the Norwegian "høgskoleingeniør" which typically gives you a Bachelors degree, "sivilingeniør" is typically a Masters study. The nurse study also gives you a Bachelors degree in Norway (and can be used as a foundation for the midwife study which typically gives a masters degree as well IIRC.)

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#466

Post by namaemuta » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 12:27 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #453

namaemuta wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that the problem is the overprotective treatment women have lately but maybe that's a naive thought of mine (since I can't be fully in the position of a woman).

Or maybe it is just a complicated situation that we haven't solved yet because women pursuing careers in large numbers is a new-ish thing in the world: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zon...

I read your post when it was around here in HN and a few more. I think you are part of - what I think is a minority - of women that don't agree with everything that carries the flag of feminism and actually discern if a particular thing is good or bad for the sake of women.

Focus on the topic, I don't know if that grey area can be solved any time. Whereas there are feelings there will be people incapable of control them. And I'm not talking only about romantic feelings, I'm talking also about fears, insecurities, pride... we aren't taught to manage them if it is not done by our parents and that's something that doesn't seem to be changed any close in the future. So, for example, there always be guys that will misinterpret women that are just simply being nice to them and women fearing or feeling being left out of the group when there is just the common behaviour between guys.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#467

Post by crapolasplatter » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

hnbroseph wrote: post #451

crapolasplatter wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"otherwise it's a bit of a weaselly question." Its not a weaselly question or a strawman. Its a fair and valid question. Why was it important to state being a female engineer in the title versus stating other non engineering characteristics such as height,weight,color,etc? what is the value of stating they are female when not all females are the same , nor do they automatically have the same experiences simply becaus…

> Its not a weaselly question or a strawman. Its a fair and valid question. it's not, because it's unclear, and i demonstrated why it's unclear. you refuse to clarify. "important" in what way? the mechanical exercise of job functions? individual qualia? cultural aspects? something else? "to engineering" in what way? the position requirements of a job? the industry economics? the workforce as a body of humans? the sta…

I clarified, you are just BSing. Sometimes a question is a question.

There is no value or purpose added by stating you are female in the title. Clearly all females don’t think alike or have the same experiences.

There is nothing wrong with asking why was "Female" added to the title , but not other characteristics such as height,weight,age,color,weight, etc.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#468

Post by Mz » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

namaemuta wrote: post #466

Mz wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe it is just a complicated situation that we haven't solved yet because women pursuing careers in large numbers is a new-ish thing in the world: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zon...

I read your post when it was around here in HN and a few more. I think you are part of - what I think is a minority - of women that don't agree with everything that carries the flag of feminism and actually discern if a particular thing is good or bad for the sake of women. Focus on the topic, I don't know if that grey area can be solved any time. Whereas there are feelings there will be people incapable of control t…

It will never be fully solved, but cultural norms can change in a way that makes it a lot easier than it is currently. I believe that right now, it is so normal for men and women to only really talk if they are looking for a hookup that it creates a highly charged atmosphere anytime that rule is broken.

I have read articles about the problems created when men from countries where the veil is normal move to countries where it is not. For such men, who have lived their whole lives in a culture where women are covered from head to toe in public, it is a shocking level of nudity to see women with bare faces and exposed hair and bare arms, etc. For them, it is also highly sexually charged and they stare or make inappropriate sexual advances.

Western men are not shocked by seeing a woman's face in public and it does not strike them as inherently sexually charged. Yet, even western men (and women) tend to find it weirdly over intimate to really talk with members of the opposite sex and both men and women tend to err on the side of thinking it equates to being hit on. That piece can absolutely be changed so that it is much more normal to talk with people, regardless of gender, and not default to thinking it must be an expression of romantic interest.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#469

Post by MollyR » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

chiphammertime wrote: post #261

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a distinction to be made between "things are shitty for everyone, and men tend to handle it better" and "things are shitty for women in particular because of anti-female sexism". Like, construction work is also a shitty environment that's shittier for women. There's significant danger and hard physical activity, and for men are generally better able to handle that. The amount of women in construction may…

female construction worker and FOSS hobbyist here. I've been to tech conferences and do residential construction for a living. I'm a member of the local VFD. I'm familiar with predominantly male environments. I wish there were more women doing the things I love to do, but oh well. Predominantly male environments are much more verbally and physically confrontational than mixed ones, in my experience. So my presence is…

As for the danger part. It sounds like men are socially forced to accept danger and risk, I doubt most men really want to do it, but they are forced to be providers while us women are socially forced to be caretakers.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#470

Post by MollyR » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 8:06 PM UTC

32wattle_park wrote: post #304

Hi, I got my CS degree from a university in Australia back in the early 90s. It was hard to find a job after I graduated, lots of companies prefer guys to work for them. So I had to start from a very bottom position, data entry. After a year, I managed to find a position as a junior programmer. I had the lowest salary in the team. I liked technical challenges, but hardly got any because all the interesting projects w…

I resent your comment about immigrants, it comes off as extremely racist.

I'm a woman, My brother and I are first generation korean-american developers, and were trained by our father to be computer literate, so we could get jobs. He taught us life isn't easy.

We experienced some racism, low ball offers,horrible working conditions.Both of our working circumstances don't seem that different then yours.

But it's crystal clear to me a lot of the working conditions for developers just suck in general. My brother and a few of his friends attempted suicide, he worked in silicon valley for a startup, his friends worked all over the place. He was bullied and threatened by his boss. My father had to drag my brother back home on the east coast to take care of him. My brother still isn't the same even years later.

Hell, Just listen to some of the horror stories from amazon.